Why the difference....identical honing, different feel between razors

I have been using SR for about 3 years. More recently started doing some light restoration, eventually would like to build from scratch.

I have been using a RedDot SR for most of the time as well and an old Sheffield. I recently restored/rescaled several new to me SRs.

My honing is identical on all. 3k bevel set, 8k, then 12 finish then strop.

The Sheffield is the best by far. Butter smooth. The RedDot close second. My new acquisition (Unexcelled Razor Co, Germany—-The Improved Eagle Razor) looks good but just does not do as well. Much more rough. I also did a second one with identical blade type as my Red Dot with a (AntonWingen J-Solingen) but it just underperforms.

Amazingly a friend gave me a buggered up Golden dollar that I modified so it could should its face in public and it shaves great!

Does it come down to actually steel type? I don’t understand.

I will try and include pics of my restores.

Golden Dollar with Bolivian rosewood scales, brass/African Blackwood wedge, heavily modified
Attachment 325743

Anton Wingen with cocobolo scales
Attachment 325744

Unexcelled Razor Co. with Lacewood/Leapardwood scales
Attachment 325745

I'd use the advanced search at the top of the thread and search for honing discussions by euclid440. His discussions are very detailed and informative.

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Originally Posted by woodscavenger

My honing is identical on all. 3k bevel set, 8k, then 12 finish then strop.

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I may be taking you too literally but reminds me of that quote about doing the same thing and expecting different results only this time you're expecting identical results ;)

Different steels will require a different approach, as in maybe more or less time on stones which in turn may influence the bevel setting which then influences everything.
End game is another thing & finessing a final edge can also require more or less strokes on individual razors & possibly a different finishing stone.

The state of the steel can be another factor. Restorations usually mean a degree of rust which can sometimes compromise the edge.

Some razors have a high consistency of quality others can be hit and miss.
If you can hone most razors to a similar level then how long they hold that edge becomes the next issue.

Lottsa fun isn't it :)

Just a guess here but bevel setting with a 3k? Possibly you dont have a proper bevel set? I guess you could set on 3k but it sure will take some time. Most around here start at 1k or maybe 2k if the bevel is in good shape. But after restoring, sanding, polishing, killing the edge, id want to start at 1k to be sure i got the bevel set right. After a restore some folks go even lower to start just the reshape and take away any bad steal that might be in the edge/bevel.

Oz is also right about different steels. This is why so.e guys prefer the Sheffield over German or... The hardness makes a big difference in how it will hone and feel.

That GD sure have been ground on to change the shape that much. It sure looks different now.

Marty should pop in sometime and give you some hints. But for now, welcome to SRP.

Steel does play a part, and with vintage razors, we have no idea about the conditions they have experienced. Blade design also plays a big part.

For example, your Unexcelled razor is a shoulder less hollow ground. It is very possible if you hone with too much pressure, you could lift the edge off the stone. If the edge is off the stone, you cannot hone it.

Your Wingen, was a razor ahead of its time, made with the finest steel and very well ground. Wingmen probably made razors for Bresduck, the lines of your razor are similar to a Duck, which are wicked shavers. Export razors were sold as Ducks, razors for Europe were stamped Wingen or later Othello. It should deliver a superior edge.

But that razor needs heel correction and is being honed on the stabilizer, note the marks and excessive wear on the spine over the heel. The stabilizer is most probably keeping the heel half of the razor off the stone.

As said, a razor that has been “repaired” is not a garden variety honing but is itself a repair to set a bevel. Doing so on a 3k could be challenging for most. It can be done, but again you must be careful not to use too much pressure on shoulder less razors but enough to keep the bevel flat on the stone.

Also, if you are using a 3k Super Stone, which tend to load up quickly, one must refresh the stone regularly to ensure a flat, aggressive cutting surface.

As said each razor must be approached differently, you must do what it needs. Most probably your bevels are not fully set.

Do you have good magnification?

+1 there is difference in metals, grinds, the condition of. Razor, how previous owner honed, macro, and micro flaws, even though you say you are using identical honing, one errant lap so strop can change things. Your test has many variables.

Apples to oranges. I am currently working on a 7 day set. This allows me to test near identical razors and takes away / limits many variables. I would suggest getting 2 or same razors and run your test. And see if those provide similar feel. Apples to apples

What stones are you using? This can also be causing some variables. I take all my razors new to me to 1k I like to think that this erases most of previous owners work, and increase my influence on the edge. Also how you maintain a stone will influence edge. A freshly lapped or refreshed stone will provide feel than a glazed stone

Like above reply, using magnification will get your honing much more consistent, observing scratch pattern change, polish, micro flaws. I use a inexpensive carson micro brite hand held microscope most of the time.

Technical Straight edge.... will allow you to check stones for being consistently flat, and to check razor if it is twisted, smiling , frowning........

User error.... can cause a great deal of difference not only in honing but in shave technique.

Some steel favors certain stones. My favorite edge is from kitta jnat and Swedish steel. While vintage NY, Bradford PA steel plays well with all stones. theirs issard likes faster cutting stones....You will enjoy testing razors’ feel on different stones

Depends on many factors. First, there is your honing. Identical? Since your razors are not identical, that could pose a problem. How are you verifying your bevel and your progression at each stage? Don't you find the 3k to be a bit too fine for setting the bevel on some razors? I would never dream of starting finer than 600 grit for most razors. Most guys start with 1k and coarser. I suggest getting at least the 1k Naniwa SuperStone. For faster steel removal on razors that need a lot of it, you can of course take it partway there with wet/dry sandpaper stuck to a flat plate such as my favorite, 3/4" x 3" x 12" acrylic.The 600 grit Chosera is popular, and I also like my 320 grit Kuromaku sometimes, for getting the heavy lifting done. It all depends on the razor and what condition it is in and what needs to be done.

Some razors will be easier to put a fine edge on than others. Different alloys. Different heat treating. Different tempering. Different grind. It should be no surprise that different razors shave differently or hone differently. Sometimes different means better or worse. Sometimes it just means different.

All good advice so far. I would also add grain size and heat treating to the list of variables.

Depending on how the blade was formed (cast, forged, hot rolled, cold rolled, etc...) will subject it to different temperatures for different amounts of time and for a various number of times. All of this can effect grain growth. If the steel wasn't properly normalized after all of this, then it can perform much differently then the exact same piece of steel that is otherwise identical. You can absolutely ruin good steel in a forge.

Assuming that you have a good piece of steel that has been properly formed into a blade and then normalized, you can now totally make it worthless if you screw up either the hardening or the tempering.

To me this is all part of the challenge of making a good consistent razor. Also, razors seem to magnify all of this. I can forge out a good hunting knife no problem. People will never notice if my temperatures were slightly off. Do that on a razor though and I will hear about it. The edge is so fine on a razor and we have direct feedback on our sensitive face, that we notice every little detail. I guess this is why I like making razors. It pushes me to make the very best that I can.

Someplace on here are a couple of threads I did along with the owner of a 7 day set I think in 2009

A blind test on 7 razors all honed with different finishers

It is a interesting read

Looking for the links


Okay found the first thread it was 2011

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...7-day-set.html


Next two threads

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...7-day-set.html

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ving-test.html



As you can see it was done pretty tight and the reads are interesting when looking at Identical razors
Once you add in all the new variabls from different razors it gets to be really fun hehehehe


Hone On !!!

Very good advice above. Also add into that bevel angle. Are you taping the spine... How much tape? Is there hone wear? How thick is the spine? There are lots of variables that affect this. Razors are in a way similar to blues music. It seems so simple but in that simplicity lies a hidden complexity. The geometry of a razor has to be so precise for it to perform at the level that we expect. There are good threads on here about bevel angle which you can check and adjust with tape etc, etc. I think DVW or maybe crescentcityrazors posted one someplace (Maybe one of you guys can add a link) but a very oversimplified answer to that is a four to one ratio width to spine thickness.
I would also consider 3k as being more of a mid level stone. For my 2¢ worth If you are going to get a 1K, which would be my suggestion to have regardless of what else you have, I would consider possibly a King or a Sharpton over a Nortonas the Norton that I have has a tendency to make edges a little chippy sometimes. You can work around it by keeping the stone cleaned and dressed properly but why add more variables?

I routinely hone many new Dovo and TI razors. They are all ground differently, similar but different. Even the steel is different, some harder that other. And if you compare Vintage Dovo and TI’s to modern made razors, night, and day…

Very few are ground perfectly, evenly, and fewer are straight after heat treat. Even though few are perfect, they all can be honed and take an edge, they just take an individual approach.

Any variable, no matter how minute can affect the edge. Remember the actual cutting edge cannot be seen without an SEM scope. So, any variable will/can affect the result.

Again, you must do what the razor needs. In the case of the Wingen, it needs repair to be honed properly.

While bevel angle can make a difference, most commonly with Gold Dollar type razors or vintage razors with hone wear.

But I have never measured a bevel angle, of all the razors I have ever honed.

If it has massive hone wear or will not hold an edge, I add a layer of tape or just a micro bevel with an added layer of tape Electrical, Kapton or even Scotch Tape.

It just is not as big a deal as is made out to be. If it will not hold an edge, add a layer of tape, problem solved.

That's another good search. Euclid440 has a good write up on heel correction somewhere.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Euclid440

While bevel angle can make a difference, most commonly with Gold Dollar type razors or vintage razors with hone wear.

But I have never measured a bevel angle, of all the razors I have ever honed.

If it has massive hone wear or will not hold an edge, I add a layer of tape or just a micro bevel with an added layer of tape Electrical, Kapton or even Scotch Tape.

It just is not as big a deal as is made out to be. If it will not hold an edge, add a layer of tape, problem solved.

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Well, maybe more is made out of it than what there is to it but let's also not forget Marty that your experience at honing is much greater than a lot of people's so it is much easier for you to add a layer of tape and do it on the fly. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck or pepper the gumbo, I'm trying to throw you a compliment. I'm just saying that sometimes we forget that things that are second nature in our area of expertise may not be quite as apparent to someone else. I have people call me from all over the state to do door repairs, a lot of which is hinge alignment to straighten the door in the opening and get rid of rubs and binds by use of technical stuff which I won't bore you with but, often at the base level using shims. It basically works on lever principle. There is an equation that you can use. Some people I have trained have to use the equation. I never do. I just eyeball it and it seems so simple to me that it's amazing that anyone has to use it but that's because I've been doing it for so long.
That probably sounds like bragging, it sorta does to me, but the point is that in my area of expertise it is easy to forget that not everyone can conceptualize that discipline. I know I tend to get frustrated by it which is wrong. Not saying that's what you're doing just that you know the adjustment off the top of your head maybe more than you even realize. I have tried to train people in my field that I had to let go because they just couldn't grasp the concept. For me to adjust bevel angle to any quantifiable degree more than throwing spaghetti at the wall I would have to use an equation because I'm a honing dumbass

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Very good advice above. Also add into that bevel angle. Are you taping the spine... How much tape? Is there hone wear? How thick is the spine? There are lots of variables that affect this. Razors are in a way similar to blues music. It seems so simple but in that simplicity lies a hidden complexity. The geometry of a razor has to be so precise for it to perform at the level that we expect. There are good threads on here about bevel angle which you can check and adjust with tape etc, etc. I think DVW or maybe crescentcityrazors posted one someplace (Maybe one of you guys can add a link) but a very oversimplified answer to that is a four to one ratio width to spine thickness.
I would also consider 3k as being more of a mid level stone. For my 2¢ worth If you are going to get a 1K, which would be my suggestion to have regardless of what else you have, I would consider possibly a King or a Sharpton over a Nortonas the Norton that I have has a tendency to make edges a little chippy sometimes. You can work around it by keeping the stone cleaned and dressed properly but why add more variables?

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I agree that bevel angle is an important factor. Forgot to mention that, but it kind of comes under the "grind" heading, anyway. I have posted at length regarding tape and bevel angle on another forum and there are articles on my growleymonster dot com site. My already well-known views on this are extremely controversial here on this forum and I don't feel like arguing so I will decline for now, in regard to posting on the subject. Some time in the future, maybe. When it doesn't seem like I am just repeating what I recently posted all over again.

Since moving production to Mexico some time ago, I find Nortons to be very inconsistent not only from one stone to another, but even within one stone. Sometimes aggressive lapping will take the surface down into more consistent composition. Sometimes not. I really do not like them much these days, and I put them in the same quality category as King, Bear Moo, etc except that they cost more. I like the low grit Shaptons and the Naniwa as well, both the SS and the Chosera. The SS seems to dish out more quickly than the Kuromoku or the Chosera but it almost never chips an edge. The red resin type sandpaper, glued to a suitable plate, makes an excellent cheap single use bevel setter. At least you know it is flat. And you get any grit you want. Following sandpaper with a lapped SuperStone gives a pretty nice bevel. I like lapping film for the progression but I can take it or leave it for bevel setting. YMMV on all that and I do not profess to be particularly unbiased.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

That's another good search. Euclid440 has a good write up on heel correction somewhere.

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I found this one a little while ago. I remember when he told me I need to reshape the heel and I thought "oh crap, that is probably way over my head" and then read this and it seemed a lot less daunting. That said, I got the stones out and picked up one of the blades to scrape on it, noticed the heel and put it back. So, apparently still a little daunting.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ml#post1714002

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Well, maybe more is made out of it than what there is to it but let's also not forget Marty that your experience at honing is much greater than a lot of people's so it is much easier for you to add a layer of tape and do it on the fly.

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I am not disagreeing with your overall point. However, I read this angle thing and thought then why am I bothering. His fix for everything seems to be to increase the angle. So, for the razor I just measured and was concerned that adding tape was taking it over the 20 deg number. Although, Euclid may eyeball it and add thinner tape on this one, so WTF do I know. No need to be rude, it's rhetorical :).

Woodscavenger: One thing to note, if you do start to think about bevel angles, razor people measure them different from everything else. Basically, it is double the normal definition.

You guys are making this, way more complicated than it needs to be. 99 percent of vintage razors honed by new honers, that will not shave, is simply because the bevel was never fully set.

If the heel is in need of correction/ reshaping,(to move the corner of the edge well forward of the stabilizer), so it can be honed without touching the stabilizer the heel half of the edge will not touch the stone.

Five minutes on a diamond stone or file will remove this issue completely. Recently I looked at the first dozen razors for sale in the BST with stabilizers, all of them needed heel correction.

Most of the razor I hone, even new razors, probably 80 percent, need and I perform some heel correction. For most it is literally just a few swipes with a diamond file.

Less than 1-2 percent of the razors I hone have a bevel angle so acute from spine wear that they will not hold an edge. And when they will not hold an edge, I simply add a layer of tape. It is almost a non-issue.

Now, Chinese razors usually have too thick of a spine and the angle is too obtuse and will not shave well. I simply measure a vintage razor of about the same blade width and grind the Chinese razor to about that thickness on a diamond plate, then hand sand the spine smooth and hone.

Again, it is almost a non-issue, I have not honed a Chinese razor in over a year. If you are modifying and hone Chinese razors you will be doing a lot of spine thinning, but it is not a complicated issue to resolve.

Bevel angle is a non-issue. Learn to recognize when the bevels are meeting, simply by looking down on the edge. If you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting.

Which stone you use does not matter, I probably have 6-7 1k stones from different makers and I usually use a $20 King 1k, that I bought at a flea market for a dollar.

Spend your time learning to fully set a bevel and all the drama will go away.

Maybe a bad analogy but you could go and buy a car and I can buy the same exact make and model, same year, same options, same color maybe even one off a parallel production line and mine lasts 250,000 miles with just routine service and you get a lemon. You can buy the same razor x2 and they will feel totally different.

The more hand operations items have the more variability they will have. Now add different makers and materials and the moods and abilities of workers on a given day and well you get the idea.

The same applies to you when you work on different razors. There are so many variables affecting the outcome.

Great responses all! thanks.

I see I need to up my stone budget. I did pick up a King 1k/6K today. Add it to the growing list of tools.

Back to the beginning with resetting the bevels. The idea that I may never have uncovered clean steel at the edge makes sense. Would it be heretical to stand the blade perpendicular to a stone and run the edge along the stone to get down to clean, consistent metal?

I will work on the heel on the Wingen. It was amazing that it took me a while to find a diagram showing the “stabilizer”. Most diagrams leave that out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by woodscavenger

Great responses all! thanks.

I see I need to up my stone budget. I did pick up a King 1k/6K today. Add it to the growing list of tools.

Back to the beginning with resetting the bevels. The idea that I may never have uncovered clean steel at the edge makes sense. Would it be heretical to stand the blade perpendicular to a stone and run the edge along the stone to get down to clean, consistent metal?

I will work on the heel on the Wingen. It was amazing that it took me a while to find a diagram showing the “stabilizer”. Most diagrams leave that out.

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maybe when the Plague ends we can have another skills Meet Up for the WA ID MT guys we used to do them every year in Spokane

It would take me 10 minutes to teach you how to correct stuff like that in person

Glen has a vid somewhere of high angle honing. This is what i use to correct an edge that needs a lot. I wouldn't just grind it flat as then you have more work fixing the flat. After that correct the heal. Then set bevel completely. Use tape to protect the spine durring the work. Bevel set on 1k and your on your way

“Would it be heretical to stand the blade perpendicular to a stone and run the edge along the stone to get down to clean, consistent metal?”

Not at all, it is called bread knifing as some use a sawing stroke similar to slicing bread.

It is a common practice when sharpening tool and knives to remove chips or to straighten an edge. If you do bread knifing use the edge/ corner or one inch near the end of the stone that you almost never use.

Notice that when you start a stroke, most folks are about 1 inch from the end of the stone, the only thing that touches near the end is the spine. Actually, if you look at honing videos, most guys only hone with 4 inches of a 8 inch stone.

High angle honing is using a edge trailing stroke with the blade close to 90 degrees to the stone face, dragging the razor across the length.

Another myth is honing will remove less material than bread knifing or high angle honing. In reality, all 3 methods remove exactly the same amount of material. If you are removing a chip, you must remove all the steel on the edge equal to the bottom of the chip, no matter which technique you use.

If you just want to straighten or remove a bur, you can Joint the edge. Simply drag the edge held at 90 degrees to the stone face, across the stone, using just the weight of the blade. It will remove a minimum amount of steel and leave the edge perfectly straight. Then bring the bevels to meet the already straight edge. The edge is very thin so you do not need pressure.

The 1-6 K combination is a good one. The King 1k is an aggressive 1K, as is the 6k, but with lite pressure the 6k leaves a uniform semi polished edge, not good enough to shave on, but great to jump to a finish stone.

Now, if you can find an old King 6k on a wooden stand, and with brown dot in the stone, those are great stones. I have 2 and they can leave a near mirror finish. I will make a post on that stone as it is very unique. I believe that these stones were make with a combination of synthetic and ground natural stones. If you find one, they are great stones. That stone you can shave off of.