Thread: Why the difference....identical honing, different feel between razors

That's another good search. Euclid440 has a good write up on heel correction somewhere.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

While bevel angle can make a difference, most commonly with Gold Dollar type razors or vintage razors with hone wear.

But I have never measured a bevel angle, of all the razors I have ever honed.

If it has massive hone wear or will not hold an edge, I add a layer of tape or just a micro bevel with an added layer of tape Electrical, Kapton or even Scotch Tape.

It just is not as big a deal as is made out to be. If it will not hold an edge, add a layer of tape, problem solved.

Well, maybe more is made out of it than what there is to it but let's also not forget Marty that your experience at honing is much greater than a lot of people's so it is much easier for you to add a layer of tape and do it on the fly. I'm not trying to be a smart aleck or pepper the gumbo, I'm trying to throw you a compliment. I'm just saying that sometimes we forget that things that are second nature in our area of expertise may not be quite as apparent to someone else. I have people call me from all over the state to do door repairs, a lot of which is hinge alignment to straighten the door in the opening and get rid of rubs and binds by use of technical stuff which I won't bore you with but, often at the base level using shims. It basically works on lever principle. There is an equation that you can use. Some people I have trained have to use the equation. I never do. I just eyeball it and it seems so simple to me that it's amazing that anyone has to use it but that's because I've been doing it for so long.
That probably sounds like bragging, it sorta does to me, but the point is that in my area of expertise it is easy to forget that not everyone can conceptualize that discipline. I know I tend to get frustrated by it which is wrong. Not saying that's what you're doing just that you know the adjustment off the top of your head maybe more than you even realize. I have tried to train people in my field that I had to let go because they just couldn't grasp the concept. For me to adjust bevel angle to any quantifiable degree more than throwing spaghetti at the wall I would have to use an equation because I'm a honing dumbass

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

That's another good search. Euclid440 has a good write up on heel correction somewhere.

I found this one a little while ago. I remember when he told me I need to reshape the heel and I thought "oh crap, that is probably way over my head" and then read this and it seemed a lot less daunting. That said, I got the stones out and picked up one of the blades to scrape on it, noticed the heel and put it back. So, apparently still a little daunting.

https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ml#post1714002

Originally Posted by PaulFLUS

Well, maybe more is made out of it than what there is to it but let's also not forget Marty that your experience at honing is much greater than a lot of people's so it is much easier for you to add a layer of tape and do it on the fly.

I am not disagreeing with your overall point. However, I read this angle thing and thought then why am I bothering. His fix for everything seems to be to increase the angle. So, for the razor I just measured and was concerned that adding tape was taking it over the 20 deg number. Although, Euclid may eyeball it and add thinner tape on this one, so WTF do I know. No need to be rude, it's rhetorical .

Woodscavenger: One thing to note, if you do start to think about bevel angles, razor people measure them different from everything else. Basically, it is double the normal definition.

You guys are making this, way more complicated than it needs to be. 99 percent of vintage razors honed by new honers, that will not shave, is simply because the bevel was never fully set.

If the heel is in need of correction/ reshaping,(to move the corner of the edge well forward of the stabilizer), so it can be honed without touching the stabilizer the heel half of the edge will not touch the stone.

Five minutes on a diamond stone or file will remove this issue completely. Recently I looked at the first dozen razors for sale in the BST with stabilizers, all of them needed heel correction.

Most of the razor I hone, even new razors, probably 80 percent, need and I perform some heel correction. For most it is literally just a few swipes with a diamond file.

Less than 1-2 percent of the razors I hone have a bevel angle so acute from spine wear that they will not hold an edge. And when they will not hold an edge, I simply add a layer of tape. It is almost a non-issue.

Now, Chinese razors usually have too thick of a spine and the angle is too obtuse and will not shave well. I simply measure a vintage razor of about the same blade width and grind the Chinese razor to about that thickness on a diamond plate, then hand sand the spine smooth and hone.

Again, it is almost a non-issue, I have not honed a Chinese razor in over a year. If you are modifying and hone Chinese razors you will be doing a lot of spine thinning, but it is not a complicated issue to resolve.

Bevel angle is a non-issue. Learn to recognize when the bevels are meeting, simply by looking down on the edge. If you see any shiny reflections, the bevels are not meeting.

Which stone you use does not matter, I probably have 6-7 1k stones from different makers and I usually use a $20 King 1k, that I bought at a flea market for a dollar.

Spend your time learning to fully set a bevel and all the drama will go away.

Maybe a bad analogy but you could go and buy a car and I can buy the same exact make and model, same year, same options, same color maybe even one off a parallel production line and mine lasts 250,000 miles with just routine service and you get a lemon. You can buy the same razor x2 and they will feel totally different.

The more hand operations items have the more variability they will have. Now add different makers and materials and the moods and abilities of workers on a given day and well you get the idea.

The same applies to you when you work on different razors. There are so many variables affecting the outcome.

Great responses all! thanks.

I see I need to up my stone budget. I did pick up a King 1k/6K today. Add it to the growing list of tools.

Back to the beginning with resetting the bevels. The idea that I may never have uncovered clean steel at the edge makes sense. Would it be heretical to stand the blade perpendicular to a stone and run the edge along the stone to get down to clean, consistent metal?

I will work on the heel on the Wingen. It was amazing that it took me a while to find a diagram showing the “stabilizer”. Most diagrams leave that out.

Originally Posted by woodscavenger

Great responses all! thanks.

I see I need to up my stone budget. I did pick up a King 1k/6K today. Add it to the growing list of tools.

Back to the beginning with resetting the bevels. The idea that I may never have uncovered clean steel at the edge makes sense. Would it be heretical to stand the blade perpendicular to a stone and run the edge along the stone to get down to clean, consistent metal?

I will work on the heel on the Wingen. It was amazing that it took me a while to find a diagram showing the “stabilizer”. Most diagrams leave that out.

maybe when the Plague ends we can have another skills Meet Up for the WA ID MT guys we used to do them every year in Spokane

It would take me 10 minutes to teach you how to correct stuff like that in person

Glen has a vid somewhere of high angle honing. This is what i use to correct an edge that needs a lot. I wouldn't just grind it flat as then you have more work fixing the flat. After that correct the heal. Then set bevel completely. Use tape to protect the spine durring the work. Bevel set on 1k and your on your way

“Would it be heretical to stand the blade perpendicular to a stone and run the edge along the stone to get down to clean, consistent metal?”

Not at all, it is called bread knifing as some use a sawing stroke similar to slicing bread.

It is a common practice when sharpening tool and knives to remove chips or to straighten an edge. If you do bread knifing use the edge/ corner or one inch near the end of the stone that you almost never use.

Notice that when you start a stroke, most folks are about 1 inch from the end of the stone, the only thing that touches near the end is the spine. Actually, if you look at honing videos, most guys only hone with 4 inches of a 8 inch stone.

High angle honing is using a edge trailing stroke with the blade close to 90 degrees to the stone face, dragging the razor across the length.

Another myth is honing will remove less material than bread knifing or high angle honing. In reality, all 3 methods remove exactly the same amount of material. If you are removing a chip, you must remove all the steel on the edge equal to the bottom of the chip, no matter which technique you use.

If you just want to straighten or remove a bur, you can Joint the edge. Simply drag the edge held at 90 degrees to the stone face, across the stone, using just the weight of the blade. It will remove a minimum amount of steel and leave the edge perfectly straight. Then bring the bevels to meet the already straight edge. The edge is very thin so you do not need pressure.

The 1-6 K combination is a good one. The King 1k is an aggressive 1K, as is the 6k, but with lite pressure the 6k leaves a uniform semi polished edge, not good enough to shave on, but great to jump to a finish stone.

Now, if you can find an old King 6k on a wooden stand, and with brown dot in the stone, those are great stones. I have 2 and they can leave a near mirror finish. I will make a post on that stone as it is very unique. I believe that these stones were make with a combination of synthetic and ground natural stones. If you find one, they are great stones. That stone you can shave off of.