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Thread: Nothing against the Barbers
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11-25-2008, 10:26 AM #1
The only modern straight shave I had wasn't very good. I was given an apprentice and the shave was satisfactory. The experience though, with the towels and hot oils, lather, etc. was incredible.
A barber today probably doesn't know anything about shaving at all, with a few big exceptions. We are all much better than a modern barber.
Back in the hey day of straight shaving they had hands on instructions, supervisors, willing faces for practice, co-workers. Heck, you could even ask the guy next to you at the bar. We don't stand a chance of being much better than they were, nor are we very likely to find some new technique or concept. We certainly aren't any smarter than they were (just spend some time in the Conversation forum), nor are we, with a few exceptions, likely to modernize the process somehow without changing the tools or technology and making a new, modern version of the art (like using a high micron paste). Heck, if we are better today its only because of modern hones, this website, modern blades, modern pastes, etc.
The big advantage we have is all their original knowledge, the internet (I can read some good stuff from other countries on the subject), and we shave our own faces. That makes it easy for us, and gives us an easy sense sharpness, only one whisker pattern to deal with, and a willing long tempered test subject.
But, I have to admit, if I ever get a hold of a time machine I'm going back in time to a barber shop in the middle of the morning shaving rush and yelling "OK, what the is the deal with all these sagging strops!"
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11-25-2008, 11:33 AM #2Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath.
To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day
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11-25-2008, 01:10 PM #3
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Thanked: 4942When I started the first forum 8 years ago, there was virtually no consolidated information where people could come and learn the art of straight razor shaving. Now we have many forums and have had the opportunity to learn from thousands of people learning as well as share the experiences from the few long time straight razor shavers. As a result, we probably have more knowledge now than ever in this area. We can still learn a lot from the old time barbers who are still around if we listen. They may not use all the modern techniques that we have learned about here, but they have so much to offer. We have found that there are as many ways to shave, hone and restore razors as there people here and everyone has their own preferences. Look at what we have learned about soaps and brushes. Heck we even get opinions from people who haven't done something, but will tell us how they think they would do it.......
If anything, we have helped the barbers get back into the art of straight razor shaving by demand and they will improve their skills to the level of yesteryear with all the new technology that we have available.
I can say that even if every barber shave was not the best shave I've gotten, I have received some of the best shaves in my life from barbers and I have loved the experience every single time.
Have fun,
LynnLast edited by Lynn; 11-25-2008 at 02:04 PM.
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11-25-2008, 10:30 PM #4
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Thanked: 1903Since the thread has been hijacked already, I shall cut in here as well.
First, thanks to you and your fellow old hands for providing the forum. It is excellent. However...
When I switched from DE shaving to straights, I first came to B&B. They site is better optimised for search engines, and they have this seemingly wonderful illustrated tutorial for beginners. In hindsight, that set me back by about two months, but life is a bitch.
Now then, SRP has undoubtedly the most knowledge anywhere on the web. But it is utterly dis-organised. Coming back to Bruno's point about vocal multi-posters: A lot of time and effort here is spent re-iterating what has been said many times before. That may be a design decision, but it will not further the cause of this forum.
Why? Because the regulars (as you may want to call the experienced users with lots of postings) have reached a level of experience that cannot be reached other than by several years of experience in dealing with all aspects of straight shaving, honing in particular.
That may also explain the exit factor. For an average visitor to this forum, a few months will suffice to gather the knowledge necessary to obtain satisfactory shaves. They may even decide to keep sending off their dulled razors to a honemeister, rather than spend time and money buying hones and learning the skill. I decided to learn to hone my own razors, but the money factor was considerable (again, many thanks to Joe, Simon and Ivan for their tremendous support), and I have only begun to learn the skill.
Coming back to knowledge management (and at the end of the day, that is what this discussion will boil down to, like it or not):
- Forums are excellent for a quick exchange of information. They are bad for presenting existing knowledge.
- Wikis are good for aggregating, and refining, knowledge.
- IRC (aka "The Chat") is good for communication and exchanging ideas.
Courtesy of Dave's excellent, and outstanding, work here, all three options are available. Unfortunately, though, only the forum is used to its full extent, and beyond. The result is that a lot of energy is spent paraphrasing known truths (not least because newcomers are not offered a quick and dirty way to straight shaving other than your DVD (which is, of course, phenomenal, but takes some time to arrive in a beginner's inbox).
Interestingly, there recently was a discusssion on #srp whether pointing people towards the Wiki would result in a decrease of "familiarity" in the forums. Personally, I do not believe that will be the case. But it will mean a certain change in the tone of the forum. Whether that is condecension, as another poster in this thread suggested, is entirely up to the recipient of the message. I come from a Unix background, where RTFM has always been considered a perfectly acceptable response to a stupid question. And yes, I believe that any question that can be answered by google is inherently stupid, because it is a waste of resources (point in case: writing time available to SRP regulars).
Now then, where was I? Ah yes, the Wiki issue. The next logical step for SRP would be to turn that well of wisdom that the forum is into an easily accessible encyclopedia of straight razor shaving. The Wiki has been online for several months. Has anything happened? Not at all. If it were not for a few heroic characters like Bjørn or Lee, it would still be devoid of any meaningful content.
And that is exactly where the problem lies. You guys can spend months and years discussing the advantages of a Coticule with slurry over the other latest honing hype, but it will simply not make any difference whatsoever to the outside world. You are, in a manner of speaking, the earth lovers of shaving. Your problems are becoming as esoteric as your solutions. But you are losing contact with beginners in a way that will effectively cut you off from the personnel resources required to take this site beyond what it currently is. You will need more writers, and editors in particular, if you want to achieve that. And neither The Conversation, nor the umptienth gun thread, nor another discussion on whether barbers were better in the Middle Ages, the Wild West, or when Lynn Abrams was young (whichever happened first) will help attract that target group to this forum.
Did I mention that I totally love this place? If not, I do. Despite the above paragraphs.
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11-25-2008, 11:59 PM #5
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11-26-2008, 01:35 AM #6
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Thanked: 77Ummm.. BeBerlin, I'm not sure what you said (I think it was a comment on site organisation, reiteration of old threads, and people leaving? I've interjected in a couple of places below.
I've spend a lot of time on a number of forums (different interests) and I find this one quite well organized. There is the newbie's corner which I see as a sort of "common area". Think of it as the "general discussion" area. then there are the "basic whatever" sections and further the "advanced whatever" sections. I think that works great although I'd suggest renaming the "newbie's corner".
Why? Because the regulars (as you may want to call the experienced users with lots of postings) have reached a level of experience that cannot be reached other than by several years of experience in dealing with all aspects of straight shaving, honing in particular.
That may also explain the exit factor. For an average visitor to this forum, a few months will suffice to gather the knowledge necessary to obtain satisfactory shaves. They may even decide to keep sending off their dulled razors to a honemeister, rather than spend time and money buying hones and learning the skill. I decided to learn to hone my own razors, but the money factor was considerable (again, many thanks to Joe, Simon and Ivan for their tremendous support), and I have only begun to learn the skill.
Coming back to knowledge management (and at the end of the day, that is what this discussion will boil down to, like it or not):
1. Forums are excellent for a quick exchange of information. They are bad for presenting existing knowledge.
Courtesy of Dave's excellent, and outstanding, work here, all three options are available. Unfortunately, though, only the forum is used to its full extent, and beyond. The result is that a lot of energy is spent paraphrasing known truths
Interestingly, there recently was a discusssion on #srp whether pointing people towards the Wiki would result in a decrease of "familiarity" in the forums. Personally, I do not believe that will be the case. But it will mean a certain change in the tone of the forum. Whether that is condecension, as another poster in this thread suggested, is entirely up to the recipient of the message. I come from a Unix background, where RTFM has always been considered a perfectly acceptable response to a stupid question. And yes, I believe that any question that can be answered by google is inherently stupid, because it is a waste of resources (point in case: writing time available to SRP regulars).
Now then, where was I? Ah yes, the Wiki issue. The next logical step for SRP would be to turn that well of wisdom that the forum is into an easily accessible encyclopedia of straight razor shaving. The Wiki has been online for several months. Has anything happened? Not at all. If it were not for a few heroic characters like Bjørn or Lee, it would still be devoid of any meaningful content.
And that is exactly where the problem lies. You guys can spend months and years discussing the advantages of a Coticule with slurry over the other latest honing hype, but it will simply not make any difference whatsoever to the outside world. You are, in a manner of speaking, the earth lovers of shaving. Your problems are becoming as esoteric as your solutions. But you are losing contact with beginners in a way that will effectively cut you off from the personnel resources required to take this site beyond what it currently is.
I'm closely following that thread on "Tapeing the EDGE"where a few have implied that "everyone knows that a full hollow flexes with facial contours or skin". Really? how much? and "everyone knows that it's more comfortable". So I got the impression that everyone accepted the statement that as the blade loses width it loses it's flex and it becomes less comfortable or at least shaves very differently. I was thinking maybe it was because the bevel angle changed? but the discussion strayed away from any facts or numbers because "everybody knows". So I think you need the esoteric discussions at one end to support the base at the other end, and visa versa.
You will need more writers, and editors in particular, if you want to achieve that. And neither The Conversation, nor the umptienth gun thread, nor another discussion on whether barbers were better in the Middle Ages, the Wild West, or when Lynn Abrams was young (whichever happened first) will help attract that target group to this forum.Last edited by Quick; 11-26-2008 at 01:42 AM.