Thread: In The Deep End

Although I found the slicing motion in the barber's manual I didn't find the 30 degree angle. With the 30 degree angle the force towards you face is half the force you're applying to the blade. That's the force that will cut you.

Originally Posted by superfly

I was refering to the earlier reply, when discussed a diagonal stroke, or 'scything' stroke. I use this stroke, with sucess.

I checked the angle of my cutting stroke, it is more like ~30 degrees, like in the barber's manual.

The blade angle should be around 30 degrees, also. Try modifying to suit your style.


Blade Angle:


Cutting Angle:

You see, the blade in slicing motion don't go straight down. It slightly deviates diagonaly to the left. This deviation is about 30 degrees from the straight down line, like marked in my `cutting angle` picture (b.t.w. the same picture as in the barber's manual) There is NO force at all towards the face. I used the 30 degrees angle to describe the way the blade is moving. So, NO force towards the skin at all. I don't know how else to explain this. I just use this stroke, not straight down, like in push-cutting, but slightly to the left, like in meat-carving. Just look carefuly in the barber's manual, and READ the text.

This is a quote from the Barber's manual-shaving I am reffering to. Just read carefuly and look at the picture.

"Everyone knows that in order to cut enything well with a knife, it is nececary to draw the knife trough it with a slicing or sawing movement, for if one tried to press the knife directly throug it, no matter how sharp the blade might be, the result will be a poor cutting job."

Again, I don't diagree about the slicing motion.

If you look at the upper picture and imagine holding the razor and applying some force in the direction of the edge, half of that force will be directed towards the skin if you use the 30 degree angle. It's simple physics.

Originally Posted by superfly

I used the 30 degrees angle to describe the way the blade is moving. So, NO force towards the skin at all. I don't know how else to explain this.

I can tell there's some debate on the issue of "Cutting Angle" and while Superfly's argument about a cutting motion being essential to a good shave, no-one has ever considered using a safety razor this way and people still get shaved. This argument aside, it IS in the manual so must be given at least some credence. I'm generally leading with the tip slightly, maybe 15-20º or so, but some strokes are straight push and I can't tell much of a difference in the quality of the shave in terms of closenes, but do notice a slightly easier cut when cutting on an angle. I have to confess that easy cutting still freaks me out a bit. I feel like the next step is an easy face slashing.

Getting back to another point. What is it abut the stropping that seems to make it necessary to go AGAINST the direction of honing to achieve the cutting edge? I've only been doing this for a day or two now and I think I'm noticing an improvement. AM I dreaming? Can anyone coroborate this?

X

Just about the best shave I have ever had is with a Merkur slant DE using Feather blades. The slant has the slice angle built in. You can also shave with a DE on slant and some people do it.

Theoretically, reducing the razor tilt (not cutting angle) to 20 degrees reduces the pressure towards your face by over 30%. With easy cutting there's less of a chance to cut yourself. If you stretch, the chance of cutting yourself increases with the amount of force you apply.

The reason for stropping spine first is totally practical. You don't want to slice up your strop.

Originally Posted by xman

I can tell there's some debate on the issue of "Cutting Angle" and while Superfly's argument about a cutting motion being essential to a good shave, no-one has ever considered using a safety razor this way and people still get shaved. This argument aside, it IS in the manual so must be given at least some credence. I'm generally leading with the tip slightly, maybe 15-20º or so, but some strokes are straight push and I can't tell much of a difference in the quality of the shave in terms of closenes, but do notice a slightly easier cut when cutting on an angle. I have to confess that easy cutting still freaks me out a bit. I feel like the next step is an easy face slashing. :shock:

Getting back to another point. What is it abut the stropping that seems to make it necessary to go AGAINST the direction of honing to achieve the cutting edge? I've only been doing this for a day or two now and I think I'm noticing an improvement. AM I dreaming? Can anyone coroborate this?

X

Of course spine first on the strop, but heal leading the toe, so tang ahead of the spike.

X

The so-called "slicing" or "scything" angle has been referenced in several places, and refers to eihter the toe leading the heel, or the heel leading the toe during the shaving stroke. The SAME spine-to-face angle exists as always, and the same pressure-to-face.

That said, there was a comment I read someplace that got even more granular than this. They commented on the fact that manner in which you honed the razor had a lot to do with the actual cutting edge, and predetermined which "scything" angel to use - toe leading or heel leading! Apparently had something to do with the very edge fins being oriented in one direction or the other.

I use the heel leading most of the time on my cheeks, and the toe leading on the sides of my neck. My chin requires many small strokes in many directions in order to get around all of the deep skin creases, so angle is irrelevant there.

I think that some sort of angle makes sense ..... a truly 'straight' downward stroke would require an extremely sharp razor, and a certain type of beard in order to get clean.

Once I began using the angle approach, my shaves got way easier, and much, much cleaner!

Best -

I think I might have just earned my first gold star.

Antique Wade and Butcher arrived the other day with the better part of a century's worth of tarnish and NO bevel. Not only did I hone that puppy for about 4 hours to achieve the bevel, but I realised that my honing is substandard on the left to right pass, which is part of the reason why I haven't gotten some of those other ebay specials shaving. Best of all though, is that I've gotten that puppy so sharp it's unbelievable. The heel is a bit sharper than the point as well and the difference in shave is palpable. Two days ago it was a bit scratchy on the tip, but nice at the heel. Another thirty minutes today gave me nice at the tip and SCARY SHARP at the heel. Hairs are starting to split further and further up the blade. Another half hour or so mid week and this thing is gonna be frightening.
I've already nicked my thumb, slipped a slice out of my strop (sanded away now) and nicked my lip! The most amazing thing about such keenness is how little pressure is needed (and I do mean needed) as well as what a subtle cutting angle can do to help the shave go smoother. I'm surprised at the steel most of all. It responds so well to the Norton that even I can get it up to the level of the Böker which David sent me. Thanks for showing me what "keen" can mean David.

X

Hey Superfly! I find your graphics really useful! Could you do one showing a scything motion where the toe leads the heel?
A scything motion is what I try to use.

Your graphics belong in the permanent archive here, there are very instructive for the newbies and as always, a picture is worth a thousand words. When this site becomes more stable I will ask that your stuff be put in the permanent archives. Thanks for all your efforts.

The honing keeps improving. Just when I think I've got it right, I notice something inconsistent or it just doesn't shave like it should. I just took 5 Ebay blades to the Norton combo and the 0.5 chromium oxide paste and using an ULTRA-light touch throughout the pyramid they all took a step up. All have inconsistencies along the blade, but all improved. I also tried to roll the blade slightly from heel to toe and it is those extreme edges which have the greatest inconsistencies. I can't help but wonder what that means. I must be over 2,000 laps by now and know I will get it soon (haven't I said that before?).

On a brighter note, I used a hot towel for the first time this week. Before I was simply splashing my face with hot water and it worked just fine, especially out of the shower. The towel keeps the heat next to the skin longer than a splash of water and uses less water too. I'm not sure it made for a better shave, but WOW does it ever feel nice. Man, oh man. Why did this ever fall out of fashion? Surely even the Mach III shaver can enjoy a hot towel.

X