Thread: Anatomy of a "Perfect" Shave - a Newbie point of view

Excellant post. You have to set goals and ideally change no more than 1 variable at a time and see what it does.

But let's face it. When you are first beginning, you are flying all over the place, reading the forums, trying the new stuff to try and make you successful, and in the end, you nailed it. Set your baseline, change simple things, know why you are changing them and then gauge their affects.

There are a core set of rules that you stated well for str8 shaving. But the rest is very personal. Direction of beard growth, dexterity, time, water type, money to spend, ability to pay attention and distraction, attitude. The list goes on and on. These things are constantly interacting with one another, and even affect the shave quality of the most experienced. Less so, but still it does.

Very good - thanks.

Nice post .. being a new Str8 shaver myself I concur with everything you stated. For your #5 I would say Geometry would be a good thing to put there as you really need to learn the angles for your face. The 30 degrees is a good place to start but does not work for everyone or every razor which is one reason you want to stick with a single set of razors when first starting out ( I am learning this the hard way.. darn you RAD)

Originally Posted by Alembic

Excellant post. You have to set goals and ideally change no more than 1 variable at a time and see what it does.

But let's face it. When you are first beginning, you are flying all over the place, reading the forums, trying the new stuff to try and make you successful, and in the end, you nailed it. Set your baseline, change simple things, know why you are changing them and then gauge their affects.

There are a core set of rules that you stated well for str8 shaving. But the rest is very personal. Direction of beard growth, dexterity, time, water type, money to spend, ability to pay attention and distraction, attitude. The list goes on and on. These things are constantly interacting with one another, and even affect the shave quality of the most experienced. Less so, but still it does.

Very good - thanks.

Thank you Alembic for the kind thoughts and addition. You are absolutely right about the "personal" tangibles or intangibles associated with shaving. Some of those things, in my view, would belong in the "technique" category. Some like the direction of beard growth...well, you are born with the biology you have...nothing can be done with that. As you correctly eluded to, these are personal learned skills that get developed with one's technique as one discovers one's face and facial anatomy (and associated anomalies) for the first time.

If, I included every one of those things, this post would have to turn into a book . Come to think of it, maybe some of you veterans should take this on...I would certainly buy that book. Who knows, maybe that will start a revolution in shaving .

Thanks again Maestro,
-Robert

Originally Posted by Troggie

Nice post .. being a new Str8 shaver myself I concur with everything you stated. For your #5 I would say Geometry would be a good thing to put there as you really need to learn the angles for your face. The 30 degrees is a good place to start but does not work for everyone or every razor which is one reason you want to stick with a single set of razors when first starting out ( I am learning this the hard way.. darn you RAD)

Thank you Troggie...in some respects, the geometry, for me, would fall under "technique"...it's something you learn as you go along. I certainly am...sometimes the hard way. So far (knock on wood), I have had good DFS (close to BBS) from my fifth or sixth shave on...no nicks/cuts to brag about...so, I can confidently say technique is improving, but still I di not dare go ATG...I don't have the confidence in my dexterity yet. I am in no rush.

Happy shaving and thanks for the comments,
-Robert

BTW folks,
I forgot an (if not the most) important piece of the puzzle:


!!!!! HAVE FUN !!!!!

Cheers and happy shaving,
-Robert

My apologies gents I could not even finish reading the first post.

I got to the part that says: "you are not qualified..."

I cannot truly or accurately express how offensive this is to me. It is ridiculous to the point of being absurd.

I can accept the fact that every person is unique, but there is one maxim that may be applied to all. Assume/presume it is difficult and it will be difficult.

It took me 3 months to learn to shave with a straight razor. Beyond that I have spent the last 2+ years learning more.

I realize there is no changing the "collective wisdom" of the forum with post like these. Eventually you will understand that doing things backwards is not as helpful as you imagine

Originally Posted by kevint

My apologies gents I could not even finish reading the first post.

I got to the part that says: "you are not qualified..."

I cannot truly or accurately express how offensive this is to me. It is ridiculous to the point of being absurd.

I can accept the fact that every person is unique, but there is one maxim that may be applied to all. Assume/presume it is difficult and it will be difficult.

It took me 3 months to learn to shave with a straight razor. Beyond that I have spent the last 2+ years learning more.

I realize there is no changing the "collective wisdom" of the forum with post like these. Eventually you will understand that doing things backwards is not as helpful as you imagine

It was not meant as an offense to anyone...the remark was meant to reflect the "Average" newbie's (like myself) state of mind...I have read on many threads about many newbies that are excited about embarking on this journey and as such want to take short cuts...we often pile things up at once (like shaving, honing, stropping etc...).

In your case, since you perfected your shaving technique in 3 mos and have been shaving for >2 years now, you have probably accumulated a good bit more than most of us newbies have (probably honing is among them). To that I say: Good for you sir...most of us will only wish we were where you are now.

The maxim you elude to doesn't apply here, IMHO. You probably read in between the lines and only the "YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED" part made the impression, and a negative one at that. You incorrectly assumed that I said that one should assume the process is difficult. But even you said it yourself:

"It took me 3 months to learn to shave with a straight razor. Beyond that I have spent the last 2+ years learning more."

The key operating word is "learn"...you did it in the first 3 months and are still at it (like the rest of us...even the masters). As soon as we admit that we need to learn something, we admit that we are NOT QUALIFIED for that very something...yet. You learn, get better at it and soon enough, you are the Master among Masters.

The remark was directed at honing (in this case), which is an art - in fact, come to think of it, no one is born with any of the shaving techniques. Like driving, one needs practice to get better at it. And YES, there is a learning curve and YES, you are not qualified as a newbie to know the A-Z of honing and what to look for - e.g., I wouldn't give my car to a 13 year old and hope that he/she can get on the freeway and be able to drive. Just because one has been driving for 30+ years, doesn't make them a good driver...I think we can all attest to that fact. Some, like you, may be blessed with this gift, but for the rest of us, it is a learning process. Therefore, a newbie needs to have in their arsenal a "shave ready" razor (and not that they get off eBay and take to the hone...even if they watched all of Lynn's videos...and then directly to their face). This is the only constant while you learn how to hone (on a different razor). We need to take a breather and take it one step at a time and change variables one at a time.

1. Practice shaving technique (with a shave ready razor). And YES...the "Average" newbie (i.e., me) is "NOT QUALIFIED" to do the honing and be expected to get a sharp blade the first go around...I am sorry if you take offense at this, but it is what it is. If this forum has shown many, many times is that the vast majority fail to achieve this.

2. Learn honing on a blade that you don't shave with everyday - practice blade.

Now, having said that, I am curious as to your first 3 months experience in str8 shaving...what was the process of learning this art for you? Were you inherently in the zone or was there "any" learning involved? how about honing? Inquiring minds want to know.

If you have valuable wisdom that you have accumulated that can help facilitate and reduce the learning slope for me, I'd be all ears.


Also, I (and if I may so bold as to assume others in this forum as well) would greatly appreciate knowing what kinds of things we are "doing backwards" ??? Clarification would be greatly appreciated and I, for one, I am ready to be enlightened and be shown the right way .

Cheers,
-Robert

Robert, amigo. Of thirteen-year-olds: what could you count on; sending one out to do anything? And yet we can find numerous stories of young children performing quite amazing, surprising feats when need requires, even driving automobiles. Such things become more likely when children are given the correct information at the proper time.

If I may quote Kingsbury from his Treatise on Razors. page 18 on honing.
"In this case, as in many others, the difficulty arises from supposing there is difficulty."

We have not come here in complete darkness. Except in very few instance we have arrived here as shavers.

We have all heard that a poor workman blames his tools; meaning that it is the workman who is at fault, the cause of the error. I have taken it to further mean that a good workman may blame his tools, and shall observe when a tool has been inaccurately, poorly made.

This is an area where our senior members can help, offering their true lined good razors(but plain old ordinary 4 and 5 eighths that have become so uninteresting to use) to those wishing to learn the easy way. Continuing in the generosity we see here often this very act.

The similarity of this suggestion with continuing along , as so many propose, to a pro finished edge is not lost on me. It is almost the same thing eh?

The new perfect edge is seldom maintained perfectly when you first begin using a straight razor. Perhaps we could ultimately say; it is never maintained perfectly. More often it is soon lost. By starting at the beginning, honing hones on a flat lap we establish the long term self relience the straight razor intones. If interest is lost the tools still have their inherent, slightly discounted value intact to the next one.

What I understand first and foremost is there are no meaningful shortcuts. If you intend to always send a razor out for sharpening then doing so is no shortcut.

Why is your faith so small in acquiring this first skill, to create a sharp enough edge, not consistent with the rest. Shall we demand that one, at first, send out for stropping, or have the proper lather pre-prepared by some means. Why bother shaving oneself at all if we are so inadequate in ability to judge and choose for ourselves. You are calling people stupid, sounds like it to me.

As Lynn has said. "It's all about the shave" It took me some time to understand. At first I thought he meant the pomp, luxury, or excess one could throw into it to create an indulgent spa experience-a full drama that many expound upon.

Later I realized it is all about the shave. What does the face tell about the edge; is it doing what it is meant to do(surely even a noob knows it is to cut down whiskers that have grown on his face)

Lynn has said to me"you can tell instantly" or words to that effect when describing a test shave; after my commenting that I have often gone beyond and endured rough shave to test its limit. I did know pretty much instantly. Wiser now I can stop and rehone until the shaving is easy.

That is what you do in the beginning, shave a little, shave the easy parts. Finish the job in your regular method. Or grow a goatee, sideburns, mustache, where ever that problem area is; until through practice it at last yields. There is one short-cut to the end; it is the line at the barber shop.

It is not wrong to do it your way. I know it works. This way works too, but without all the worry and comparison to others. I doubt i have answered all you asked but I have many posts about this same and similar matters. When I am wrong it is ok, i can find out through practice and will change my mind.

Originally Posted by kevint

Robert, amigo. Of thirteen-year-olds: what could you count on; sending one out to do anything? And yet we can find numerous stories of young children performing quite amazing, surprising feats when need requires, even driving automobiles. Such things become more likely when children are given the correct information at the proper time.

If I may quote Kingsbury from his Treatise on Razors. page 18 on honing.
"In this case, as in many others, the difficulty arises from supposing there is difficulty."

We have not come here in complete darkness. Except in very few instance we have arrived here as shavers.

We have all heard that a poor workman blames his tools; meaning that it is the workman who is at fault, the cause of the error. I have taken it to further mean that a good workman may blame his tools, and shall observe when a tool has been inaccurately, poorly made.

This is an area where our senior members can help, offering their true lined good razors(but plain old ordinary 4 and 5 eighths that have become so uninteresting to use) to those wishing to learn the easy way. Continuing in the generosity we see here often this very act.

The similarity of this suggestion with continuing along , as so many propose, to a pro finished edge is not lost on me. It is almost the same thing eh?

The new perfect edge is seldom maintained perfectly when you first begin using a straight razor. Perhaps we could ultimately say; it is never maintained perfectly. More often it is soon lost. By starting at the beginning, honing hones on a flat lap we establish the long term self relience the straight razor intones. If interest is lost the tools still have their inherent, slightly discounted value intact to the next one.

What I understand first and foremost is there are no meaningful shortcuts. If you intend to always send a razor out for sharpening then doing so is no shortcut.

Why is your faith so small in acquiring this first skill, to create a sharp enough edge, not consistent with the rest. Shall we demand that one, at first, send out for stropping, or have the proper lather pre-prepared by some means. Why bother shaving oneself at all if we are so inadequate in ability to judge and choose for ourselves. You are calling people stupid, sounds like it to me.

As Lynn has said. "It's all about the shave" It took me some time to understand. At first I thought he meant the pomp, luxury, or excess one could throw into it to create an indulgent spa experience-a full drama that many expound upon.

Later I realized it is all about the shave. What does the face tell about the edge; is it doing what it is meant to do(surely even a noob knows it is to cut down whiskers that have grown on his face)

Lynn has said to me"you can tell instantly" or words to that effect when describing a test shave; after my commenting that I have often gone beyond and endured rough shave to test its limit. I did know pretty much instantly. Wiser now I can stop and rehone until the shaving is easy.

That is what you do in the beginning, shave a little, shave the easy parts. Finish the job in your regular method. Or grow a goatee, sideburns, mustache, where ever that problem area is; until through practice it at last yields. There is one short-cut to the end; it is the line at the barber shop.

It is not wrong to do it your way. I know it works. This way works too, but without all the worry and comparison to others. I doubt i have answered all you asked but I have many posts about this same and similar matters. When I am wrong it is ok, i can find out through practice and will change my mind.

Hi Kevin,
Your thoughts are much appreciated. There are always many ways to skin a cat. This is my way. I don't know, maybe for you, honing is the first among skill to acquire. To me, all of the shave techniques (shaving, honing, stropping, lathering, etc...) should be learned simultaneously. However, I like to break the food to manageable bits knowing that I won't choke on it. I don't understand where you got this ludicrous idea that I have very little faith in myself ???? What's up with that buddy??

And talk about having a flare for the dramatic. I mean, No Thank you...I do not need you to prepare a lather for me...I am quite capable of doing that myself. Although if you are offering that as a service, maybe there's business model there worth considering.

But, it seems like you and I take a different approach to learning. Maybe not. I agree that "The Shave" will tell you everything you need to know about the blade. But, without a base line or control to compare it to, how do you know you have truly achieved that "prefect" shave readiness...Is it possible that you are only 50% there and not 90 or 100%? You do need a control to compare it to...Any which way you cut it, you have to have a comparative base.

I NEVER said that just because you send a razor out to be honed, you are essentially giving up on honing and thus labeling yourself as a "Can't doer"??? Far from it maestro. By all means, go ahead and hone and learn to your heart's content. By assuming that you know everything about a trade (without having done it before) is nothing short of a mix of ignorance and arrogance.

I think I understand where you and I diverge in our philosophies. Correct me if I am wrong and don't wish to put words in your mouth, but you say that if you achieve a good shave , that's good enough and you have reached your destination (barred a few modifications here and there).

I merely say that this approach is not good enough...learning honing and acquiring that skill before I break a shave...no, won't work for me. I want to know that my "good shave" is as good as it gets...I don't like the idea of living with the "what if" in my life...i.e., what if I can achieve better with my str8? Is it as sharp as it can be? In order for me to answer this, I need to compare my technique (shave, honing etc...) to a baseline...the best baseline control is one(s) that a HoneMeister can provide me.

If you are happy with your shaves, so be it...I, for one, like to push the envelope to the limit...whether it's shave technique, honing, stropping or anything else...the process of discovery is a personal journey.

-Robert

Rob, I know that when one makes his razor as sharp as it should be, there are very few questions about it. You simply look in the mirror after the first pass and wonder. Did I do that?

I finished reading your post. I do agree with keeping a single razor up and running for as long as possible. The best control is your present method of shaving as I have said. Until you can exceed that you are not there. Beyond that there is the 'control' of your last straight shave.

While there are many variables that can become confusing along the way I nevertheless must say the only appropriate way that I see is to do all the steps, learn the whole process simultaneously. Only I say it is best to start learning to sharpen and sneak up on the full shave rather that try full shaves and sneak up or back on sharpening as it is the most needful thing and first lost.

Did you know a honemeister edge might not work for everyone? I have heard Lynn say so. I have heard others say as well they do not pursue an edge beyond their hone and strap, even though it may technically be sharper with diamond pastes etc.

They are comfortable with the results which are enough to prove the razor is sharp enough. These people more often than not have good hones.

There is no worry about the hurry to break a shave. The shave informs and improves the result by telling what is amiss. An edge that is set on 1k will shave arm hair. It will shave the beard in places like cheeks.

Shave with 1k where it will and learn something new about that stone and what 10 or 20 more strokes do. if it is harsh and prickly back hone a few strokes-what did that do? The same things happen at finer grits but are less apparent.

For me the proof is not in comparison. It is in result. The high potential for the straight razor when the steel and stone strap and face are in perfect alignment is a closity, close flawless single pass. Not a daily thing for me.
but i have done so.

If i did not get that result from a honemeister blade while first learning why should I expect it this evening, and find means to correct any lack tomorrow.