Thread: Too Sharp

Originally Posted by gssixgun

When it comes to stropping the Verhoeven paper is all but useless.. great read for honing and edge dynamics.....

Agreed. My inference from his paper indicates stropping remained a mystery to him and his electron microscope.

Originally Posted by DaveW

..... You just need to accumulate the experience so that you know what works and what causes problems. Figuring out how to communicate what it is exactly you do (if anyone even wants to hear it) can come second or never.

Did you just say YMMV? I completely utterly concur with this statement.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly any time somebody says "Wire Edge" and Straight Razor Strop in the same sentence you lose my attention..

I cannot even imagine a wire edge on a razor, besides maybe at the 1k or less level, on a SERIOUS restoration, let alone "Knocking one off" with a strop..

Please repeat this often Glen. Spot on.

Originally Posted by jaswarb

Agreed. My inference from his paper indicates stropping remained a mystery to him and his electron microscope.

Aye meeeee too,,,, and this is where the differences of opinion come into play, we all can pull up papers that defend any side of the argument, granted some are more geared to Tools and Knives which actually add to the confusion since much of those papers have little to do with straight razor edge dynamics but people quote them and link them regardless.. Actual straight razor info is very lacking, and much of it was written in Barber's training manuals which I honestly rate right up there with any Thread here on SRP infact I trust the threads here more, for the exact reason we are seeing in this one, as our threads allow for instantaneous responses, and opinions, where the old manuals only supplied one opinion, keep in mind the Barber around the corner might have been so busy, because he was so good, he didn't have time to pen a Manual

Originally Posted by jaswarb

Did you just say YMMV?

Sort of....your mileage may vary, but don't even worry about what your mileage is until you've burned a dozen fuel tanks worth. It'll likely be different and better on the 12th tank than it was on the 4th.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Honestly any time somebody says "Wire Edge" and Straight Razor Strop in the same sentence you lose my attention..

I cannot even imagine a wire edge on a razor, besides maybe at the 1k or less level, on a SERIOUS restoration, let alone "Knocking one off" with a strop..

I don't know if I did that but I agree that the only way to generate a really serious one is at lower grit and *pulling* the edge, like someone would do with a tool. A perceived one would instead be scratches left by coarse abrasive. Maybe there is some tiny disorganized semblance of one left before fine stones. After that, It's my guess that stropping wears just a tiny bit off the edge and removes the effect of the abrasive grooves that go to the edge. Maybe that's not right, or maybe it's common knowledge, I don't know, but experience tells me it improves the edge off of every single abrasive that I have (some more than others, and on some steels more than others, but always some improvement), so there's no reason to even define exactly what's going on. Worrying about it could get in the way of enjoying shaving.

I also think the term overhoning is something that should be split between stones that are coarse enough to actually do it, and stones and powders that are not. If a stone is capable of "overhoning" then for a practical daily use finisher, I don't want it.

There used to be talk of edges in woodworking being too fragile because they're too sharp. At least that much has been put to bed. I'm assuming that the discussion of the "utra fine" edges that are not durable has more to do with no edge at that level of sharpness being able to ignore abrasive skin and hairs, and that the same "weak" edge razor on every day of use is still sharper than one that started with an edge that was less sharp and perceived to be stronger.

Alex gilmore put an interesting video of a razor being palm stropped several hundred times. What it did to the edge was interesting, and not exactly what I expected to see. I don't see that up on youtube any longer, though.

Couple of things you brought up Dave

The Overhoned horn was sounded long and hard here on SRP and other forums it took years to knock it back down,, it is a term like you said that gets tossed out way to much.. The "Fragile" edge is something that is raising it's ugly head again though, with the advent of the Veho pics... Many are begining to polish the bevels for looks, rather than performance which I see as a bad thing myself.. The Proof of the Puddiing so to speak is in near every Natural edge being "Not" so pretty to the Veho yet awesome on way too many faces to discount it

The definition of "Overhoned" is so misleading that I try not to even use the term any longer, I think also like you stated, "that the term changes with where you are at on the honing ladder"... that makes sense to my brain also..

Originally Posted by DaveW

I also think the term overhoning is something that should be split between stones that are coarse enough to actually do it, and stones and powders that are not. If a stone is capable of "overhoning" then for a practical daily use finisher, I don't want it.

Great thread, guys.

I understand what you're saying, Dave, but I would suggest that any hone is capable of producing at least some small burs and a resultantly rough edge - "overhoned" if you will. Viz - the video of a lady in the Dovo factory honing rapidly on a coticle and stopping to drag the edge on what appears to be a piece of stiff leather to remove any burs before completing her task. I would further suggest that stropping would remove such burs through fatigue. Ever bend a paper clip back and forth until it breaks?

They use coticules at dovo? That's a waste considering the edge when it arrives. I shaved once with mine & sent it to Lynn.

Originally Posted by JeffR

Great thread, guys.

I understand what you're saying, Dave, but I would suggest that any hone is capable of producing at least some small burs and a resultantly rough edge - "overhoned" if you will. Viz - the video of a lady in the Dovo factory honing rapidly on a coticle and stopping to drag the edge on what appears to be a piece of stiff leather to remove any burs before completing her task. I would further suggest that stropping would remove such burs through fatigue. Ever bend a paper clip back and forth until it breaks?

Originally Posted by JeffR

Great thread, guys.

I understand what you're saying, Dave, but I would suggest that any hone is capable of producing at least some small burs and a resultantly rough edge - "overhoned" if you will. Viz - the video of a lady in the Dovo factory honing rapidly on a coticle and stopping to drag the edge on what appears to be a piece of stiff leather to remove any burs before completing her task. I would further suggest that stropping would remove such burs through fatigue. Ever bend a paper clip back and forth until it breaks?

My guess for the old term overhoned was when someone took a stone incapable of producing a finished edge, and then honed all the way to the edge of a razor. I gather a lot of barber hones are intended to clean things up a little but not go all the way to the edge because they're not generally that fine. But something like a japanese finisher or a thuri and that can be thrown out the window. It would be a shame not to bring those stones all the way to the edge. I gather that the term overhoned is used a lot when someone just doesn't properly finish an edge.

Sure there are resultant little points sticking out at the edge. Whether they are work hardened and fatigued off, I don't know, but I'm pretty sure the horse leather is abrasive enough that it actually wears the edge some to smooth it.

What i"m getting at as while the term is legitimate, I think a lot of people use it improperly to describe a different problem - incomplete honing at the final steps.

There is another thing that I don't do because I'm afforded it by having very fine finishers - I don't worry about how fine the edge is off of a bevel setting stone, I have enough stones in between and enough fine stones that make sure the coarser stones do get all the way to the edge, and then work through the fine stone, intentionally ignoring any possible issues and being concerned only that the finest stones have removed the scratches from any other stone all the way to the edge for the entire length of the blade.

I do wish I could get some reliable photography right at the very edge of a tool or razor to find out exactly what's happening on a hard horse strop, and why it doesn't happen with cowhide the same way.

As far as I understand the honing process, ALL hones work all the way out to the edge, unless you failed to set a bevel at the outset. I've avoided the word "overhoning" because I've seen no consensus on what it really means.

I know that one way to create a fragile edge is to use too much pressure, especially with your final finishers, so that the actual cutting edge actually deflects up from the stone a little and you thin the metal just spineward of it. Then when you try to shave with it, the edge crumbles because it isn't well supported by the rest of the blade.

That's all the thought I put into edge durability, well, that and how fine to try to take different steels.

I'd like to understand the functional difference between horsehide and cowhide, too. I recently saw some declarations that there is none, but in my own experience there is. Big shrug.

A fascinating discussion and a very complex one. So many variables! Does anyone use something like a dissecting microscope to clearly visualize what a high-quality shaving edge looks like, then compare the edges that come off different hones and strops? I know the final test is the shave but I'm trying (as a newbie) to come up with a way to understand the results in a way that provides a different kind of feedback.