Fact Checking Department here.
The actor in the film uses two fingers, but that's artistic license. The actual Nixon did use the two finger gesture but not in this context.
Nixon, "I am not a crook"
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Fact Checking Department here.
The actor in the film uses two fingers, but that's artistic license. The actual Nixon did use the two finger gesture but not in this context.
Nixon, "I am not a crook"
It has been a few months.
I lurked on different shaving forums before I joined SRP. Some of them were elitist, some were fine but did not concentrate on straight razors. SRP seemed to be populated with people that I could picture myself having a beer with, normal (kinda) folk. It is a place I appreciate. I can not put my finger on why this reputation system really bugs me but it does. The way it was implemented without considering the rank and files input was frustrating. I know that this forum is not a democracy but it is a community designed to listen to each others opinions.
It as been a few months since the reputation system has been installed nothing has really evened out. The system does not seem to reflect reality. The following are active users, maybe not prolific but active.
Tony Miller
Randy
JoeC
Mblue
Mparker
Dwessell
Papabull
They all have one or two green boxes, I think that this proves my point. These users would make great brain trust for any straight razor issue.
Sometimes moving forward is not a straight line, sometimes you need to take a step back and reevaluate and remedy problems then move onward.
Charlie
I think the rep system is more geared towards posting reputation than reputation as a person (although it overlaps).
So it is true that Robert Williams is a very reputable person, but not an active poster, and it is the posts that are rated.
The examples you list are valid, but there are also other examples. Take Glen for example. He is active every day, working hard in the resto forum. and his rep is going through the roof. Same for Bart, and several others (I am not that active in the technical forums anymore, so I don't know many examples).
The only way to get rep is via your posting behavior.
Giving rep for non-forum traits is not pratical, because then it will be up to me to decide who gets what rep. The only alternative would be to ditch it completely.
But if you accept that the reputation reflects posting behavior, and not personal reputation, then the rep system works as it should. Many of the active seniors are now recognizable through their rep.
On reflection, another point is this:
Say for whatever reason Bruno decided to stop posting right now. He then doesnt post on SRP for a decade or so. Straight razor techniques and things will likely move on in that time. If he then comes back to SRP and starts posting without keeping up with all the current developments he would not have the same experience as someone else. But his reputation would remain the same.
My point? Reputation doesnt go down (to my knowledge). Or if it does, it doesnt go down naturally over time. Only by others posting negative rep to you.
I was one of the ones for the rep system at the start, but what I suggested and what the rep system is are two completely different things (as has previously been discussed). I am not in favour of keeping this current rep system. I dont use it the way it is suggested and it does nothing for me. In fact I was quite upset recently when someone gave me a second green dit. I was proud of my one dit status :p
Charlie,
IIRC (love those acronyms) the greenies were adopted just about the time that people here were trying to figure out a way to both say thanks for the comment and "I agree with what you're saying." The "I agree" seemed to very quickly evolve into the green gizmos. I'd much prefer a gold or platinum star, but the little green footprints are real "now" and we're probably stuck with them. The bigger names and the better known will always pick up reputation points faster faster than the equally qualified but lesser recognized. I guess that's just another facet of human nature.
Speaking of nature, how are things in Tejas? Up here on the frozen tundra we just had a bit of snow, nothing much, but it will likely fall below zero again for the next couple of nights. One of the mysteries for me is how are we thawing the polar ice pack when it's FREEZING half way down to the equator?:shrug:
You don't suppose Ma Nature is looking for a couple of green dots, do you? :hmmm:
Bruce,
It is not the quantity of dots, it is the principle of the matter. I guess I just liked the idea of a forum of equals, where everybody’s ideas are presented with the same emphasis. This system reminds me of high school cliques, something that I left a long time ago.
I will let it go. I had to try for the Hail Mary pass to see if it would work.
Things are good in TX dontcha know. I hope I can get to MN this summer.
Charlie
An internet forum rating system is always a delimma. There are different motivations for it.
One aspect is the forum providers/administration providing value to the "service". This would primarily be for newbies. It's a better place for newbies, buyers, etc. if there is some method, in the absence of personal experience, to establish trust. It's kind of like a seller's rating/ranking system. Once you've been in a forum for some time you've formed your own opinions based on your personal experience and you don't need or pay much attention to it.
Another aspect is from the established members view point. You get "recognized" for your reputation. It's like having your achievement award being posted for recognition by your peers. I don't think this was the intent as implemented.
The problem with any system you come up with is it's use and abuse by the members. It's always somewhat of a popularity contest and cliques tend to "pump up" their own. Sometimes discretely sometimes blatantly. On another forum I frequent we even created "post whore" threads so the blatant rep inflation would be contained more in one area. Fortunately I haven't really seen much of that here.
You may have interpreted reputation differently than it's intended (not by you, but by the staff who put it in place). You have attributed a measure of current knowledge (relayed or not) to it. I see it more as a measure of trust. In the example, if Bruno had gained his reputation by making quality posts that you could trust then you could probably expect the same after his hiatus. In the above context and your example, Bruno's reputation would still be valid. You could still expect Bruno to be Bruno (in his forum identity). If he always tried to be helpful you could expect him to be the same. If he got a reputation of posting factual/helpful information that he was knowledgeable about before, you could expect the same now (If things had changed then I wouldn't expect him to post about things he wasn't familiar with). If he had always promoted events and the likes then he would probably be doing the same. Past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior.
Quote:
Originally Posted by spazola
No, maybe not from the member achievement award perspective. But from the admin/service for newbie's perspective, maybe so. For the latter it's not so much a measure of your advice being more valid but a matter of trust. "I just got here, I don't know this guy from Adam, should I feel comfortable listening to what he says?" or "should I feel more comfortable that he's not going to rip me off?". That kind of thing. If you've been here for a while then you've made your own opinions and you're not likely to even look at the reputation. Here's an extreme. If Mastro Livi posted on here he wouldn't have much rep but you'd probably not value his post any less. If you only had $100 in your budget and wanted to PM someone for an opinion on an ebay razor then Glen might be the better choice.
I could be wrong, but I kind of thought the intent of reputation (maybe not Sidney's) was primarily a guideline for newbies. (I'm NOT saying I think there's ANYTHING wrong with what I assume Sidney had in mind, just that I don't think that's what the staff had in mind). Once you're not a newbie then it doesn't have so much value (still somewhat useful when you get into the very focused areas that you're not familiar with or don't frequent).
The formula that determines how many chiclets one has does not allow for reputation to be accurately presented. because of this, I don't think there can even be a good solution without removing it from view
Back in the day we used post count as a proxy for knowledge, and liked it. There was also this scheme where your status string (the thing just above "Join Date" on the left) was determined by how many posts you had. I believe it maxed out at 100 posts at which point your status became "Honemeister". Fortunately that's gone, since it was incredibly misleading to newbies.
More seriously, though, post count, thanks count, and reputation all suffer from some common failings that make them more decorative than useful.
They display their current value on every post, and not the value they had at the time of the post. This means you can have some post by a member with a 5-digit post count or 5-dot reputation that's incredibly wrong, but what you don't know is that it was his 5th post, and he was neither experienced nor knowledgable at the time.
There are also guys around there that know a lot about shaving technique or restoration or metallurgy but know very little about honing, but neither the post count nor reputation tell you which topics to ignore them on.
Also, many of the guys giving the thumbs up and reputation points are newbies that can't really evaluate the validity or usefulness of the poster. I suspect that this implies that these two numbers are closely correlated to the number of non-social posts made since these systems were enabled.
A more useful proxy might be something similar to the google pagerank scheme, so that the reputation of a member is related to how many links there are to his posts and how many references there are to his userid.
mparker, I tried to rep you for that but was disallowed by the rep system.
Anyway, I think I agree with what you said
Let's be real here for a minute:
-Rep and thanks is also given in the conversations forums.
-Moderators have had free rep points.
-Many newbies thank everyone that answers to their threads.
-Most longtime members who only weigh in when necessary will never catch up.
-Contributing to the Wiki earns no rep, but linking to an others article often does.
-Old inexperienced posts of now high rep members gain false weight.
-There's no +1 functionality as originally asked.
Conclusion: reputation system is worthless.
That said, it has been heartwarming to receive 5 rep digits.
At the same time, I find it highly disturbing. I can't help myself checking if I harvested more rep, every time I log in. That is not a good evolution. I catch myself feeling slight disappointment if a particular "well-crafted" post receives no thanks or rep. That is not a good evolution.
You all may think I am a nutcase, but I assure you: this rep thing may turn me into a rep-addict. I may be the only one stepping forward, but I'm surely not the only one that's feeling slightly humanly compromised by it.
What I would like to propose:
That the rep & thanks scores are moved out of sight of everyone, including the member himself.
Change the ThankYou button into an anonymous +1 button, so that important posts gain weight.
Keep the rep score behind the scenes, based on the +1 button. Based on that score, and a voting by a board of veterans, let us donate each year a number of members that showed expertise in a certain field and have been helping others with it, the title "veteran". It grands no further rights, other than that those members receive one (1) star (or another appropriate symbol) next to their post count, and may vote each year for the new "veterans".
It already exists for "blabbermouths" so it would not be very difficult to implement.
That will help newbies, it encourages active members to stay active, and it honors those that have an exemplary state of forum service, without bringing primal human tendencies to the surface.
Bart.
While I agree with some of those ideas, some I do not. I personally think any system that seeks to "tell" people who or what is worth listening to and who or what you can take with a grain of salt is not only divisive, but also crosses the "nanny state" line and encourages lazy and lackadaisical thinking.
Newbies aren't stupid, they are just inexperienced with straights. If you cannot tell, after hanging out here for a few weeks who knows their stuff and who does not, then you have more to worry about than just cutting yourself with a razor, in my opinion.
Just as you must work on developing your technique with a straight, so too must you work on developing your reasoning and social and community involvement skills. I foresee a dash and grab culture developing if we are not careful - run in for info, never to be seen again afterwards, and leaving the diehards to hash out the same tired old debates ad infinitum.
In addition, I would like to point out the micro peer review process that develops within a thread. The cut and thrust of healthy debate. The dawning of realisation. The development of a clear and concise argument. The freedom to read varying points of view, critique them, and develop you own ideas on the matter. I can see how a "+1" could point the way in some cases. However, I can also see it simply stifling original thought and debate in the best case, alienating and discouraging a questioning mind in the worst.
That's my 0.02AUD = 0.0128 USD.
James.
It's easier to click a "I agree, well said" button than to type it.
I agree, well said. We don't need any of these rewarding systems that have their place in elementary schools.
But I understand that not everyone, in particular those that make such calls, agree with that sentiment. It is opted that we need a system to artificially lend some members more street-credibility than others.
The current system is rather childish and in complete dissonance with the gentlemanly atmosphere that's usually found on the forums.
So let's try to constructively come up with something that suits us better and find out if anyone's listening.
Bart.
Says it all really.
I think most form their opinions in spite of green chiclets or whichever system might replace them...
I just see them as a variant of 'post counts' so quite innocuous.
Maybe there is a better system but I'm not fussed whether they stay or go & btw, Charlie, a beer sounds good !
I still post +1 when I feel the desire. I agree with Jimbo among others that if you're around awhile it will soon be plain to see who is posting valid info and who is not. If they can't figure it out yet someone will call BS.
When I first came around I listened to Lynn, Randydance, Glen, AF Davis, mparker, ChrisL, Kaptain Zero, Bart, Utopian and I could go on. There was no chiclet thing and sometimes I think it is bizzare that I have more of the greenies then some of the forementioned members among others but I don't make the policy.
I have given out rep to many of the old timers who don't have as much rep as I think they ought to (they certainly should have more then I have) and the window pops up telling me that "You must spread some reputation around before you give John Doe more rep". I wait a week and then when I click on it and the rep button allows it. :shrug:
has anyone (site owners/admin/staff) said what the intent of the rep system is?
Is it: as a newbie you can pretty much figure this guy has been around a bit and some people respect him?
Or is it: This is how this guy ranks amoung his peers in the context of this forum.
??
Thanks to this thread I started working on my reputation..I'm getting addicted to getting thanked..
When I was new to this site and wanted to know somebodys rep I looked at the number of post and the number of thanked. I didnt even notice the green dots til a lot later.
I still have only one dot... that is frustrating..:cry:
Maarten
i think thr rep system is good to the effect it gives you an idea on how knowledgeble the person is in the world of straight shaving if i find a post useful i give thanks. give credit where credit is due if someone thanks me in a post i assume i gave them some useful information that will make thier shave better. if i dont get thanked no big deal, i am here to improve my shaving and if possible help others the thanks and rep is just a tool you can use to let someone know thanks for the good advice but i dont sweat about my greenies we are here for the shave not for the points.
jsz,
You may be abandoning the quest for green too easily. I think I got my second greenie because I'm so darn good at whining. :cry: Each of us has our strengths, hmmm?
:rofl2:
You can have my second green. I was proud of being a member of the one green dit order. Sadly however I was demoted to 2 dits.
My frustration at that was vented here:
http://straightrazorpalace.com/conve...reen-dits.html
In fact oddly enough as soon as I made the complaint IIRC half a dozen comedians started to thank me to :cen me off even more!
:rolleyes:
true but everyone knows who the big dogs are and if not someone will steer them in the right direction
Agreed - the SRP community functions just fine.
It's only the rep system that is in question. Might be just the word, 'reputation' feels incongruous. :hmmm:
FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS.......
:cen:cen:cen:cen:cen
STOP IT PLEASE!!!!!!
:cry:
My friend, you appear to be woefully short on green dits. I hope my thanks has helped in some small way.:D
Look, the more folk like you do that Mark the more the reputation system becomes meaningless! In fact the thanks that people are giving me is just proving how little unreputable the reputation dits are! So if this is how everyone gets green dits then they really do mean nothing!
Don't mind me, just stirring the pot.
Lee i've never been a supporter of the reputation system in the form it is at the moment. What do you mean 'suddenly seeing the light'? :thinking:
I want to thank you for pointing that out Lee.
But I wont press the thanks button. You'd like that wouldnt you. No. Instead I am going to make the system as meaningless as you are making it every time you thank me for no reason at all. By not using it.
IMHO
Ah, Sidney, so tempted, so tempted ... :D
But I'm refraining--for now! :cool:
Personally, I'm content with my one little dit, or chiclet, or abaciscus, or whatever it is. It signifies that in the world of straight shaving I am a dolt, an ignoramus, a cipher, and all of this is true.
And I have been getting a chuckle out of mousing over everybody's green tesserae and reading the encomia that appear. :hmmm: And yes, once this comment is posted I will mouse over my one lonely dot ... pathetic innit!
Rich
P.S. Aha, aha, I read it ... now I can adapt my sig line to read, "What is that up in the distinguished road? ..."
Its almost been 30 minutes and not a single thanks for my Velvet Underground post. Harumpf!:mad: