Thread: "Shave Ready" in the Classifieds

This is a tough one. I normally try to avoid posting in this type of threads but I think this one deserves some consideration as I personally have been directly affected by the lack of some sort of quality control. First of all, I do agree with Jimmy regarding the advantages for both buyer and seller of implementing some mechanism of quality control. In my very limited experience buying razors in general, and specifically in the classified section, I have mixed results. I am yet to buy a razor from the classifieds that fits the description 100% and this has not solely been the result of the seller being unable to hone or properly evaluate the condition of the razor; at least in one case, the situation was created by the USPS that damaged the razor while it was in transit. I have received razors that have arrived with cracked or dented scales and nicked blades, and at least one that was far from being in shave ready condition, although it was listed as such. With only one exception, I have been able to resolve the particular issues directly with the seller and without the need of posting about it. I am sure than in those cases, the seller did not mean to trick me or purposely misrepresent the razor, their attitude has been sufficiently clear to me. I have to say that I am grateful for the honesty of these sellers. In that instance where the seller did not offer a solution to the problem, I decided not to push the issue since I value Straight Razor Place (SRP) beyond a few measly $$$. I feel that if the seller must resort to tricks to keep my money, there is very little I can do other than not doing business with him again. The reason why these issues do not show up more often in the forum have its origin in the lack of knowledge on the part of the buyer, an interest on the seller side to preserve his reputation, a similar view as mine regarding the privilege of being a member of SRP or some combination of these.

Ray's point regarding newbies is completely valid in my opinion. If you buy your first razor from the classified and the razor is not shave ready, how do you know? Also consider that the razors offered in the classified are often used as a low budget alternatives. If they are not shave ready, they simply lose their purpose. Or better yet, as a member, I have endorsed the razors from the classified. How can I responsibly ask new members to purchase their first razors from the classified section without knowing that they are going to be fully satisfied? This is one of my concerns now that I see that my experience seems to be more common than I thought. I feel certain degree of responsibility for what I post. In the same way, I would like to ask that others, namely the sellers, approach listing in the classified with a comparable attitude and become accountable for the products that they list.

Having said that, I also have to agree that it is hard to impose quality controls to the razors listed in the classified, at least, not without increasing the prices of the razors, the load for those that would ultimately have to be in charge of performing the quality control or both. I just do not see how this could be done in reality. maybe some people would volunteer to help with this but I find it hard....

Al raz.

Originally Posted by jnich67

Not to beat a dead horse, but this is one of the reasons I really preferred the old buy and sell forum. It changed from a community selling and swaping place to something more "commercial" in nature. This has made it harder to police.

Good point

Originally Posted by Alraz

This is a tough one. I normally try to avoid posting in this type of threads but I think this one deserves some consideration as I personally have been directly affected by the lack of some sort of quality control. First of all, I do agree with Jimmy regarding the advantages for both buyer and seller of implementing some mechanism of quality control. In my very limited experience buying razors in general, and specifically in the classified section, I have mixed results. I am yet to buy a razor from the classifieds that fits the description 100% and this has not solely been the result of the seller being unable to hone or properly evaluate the condition of the razor; at least in one case, the situation was created by the USPS that damaged the razor while it was in transit. I have received razors that have arrived with cracked or dented scales and nicked blades, and at least one that was far from being in shave ready condition, although it was listed as such. With only one exception, I have been able to resolve the particular issues directly with the seller and without the need of posting about it. I am sure than in those cases, the seller did not mean to trick me or purposely misrepresent the razor, their attitude has been sufficiently clear to me. I have to say that I am grateful for the honesty of these sellers. In that instance where the seller did not offer a solution to the problem, I decided not to push the issue since I value Straight Razor Place (SRP) beyond a few measly $$$. I feel that if the seller must resort to tricks to keep my money, there is very little I can do other than not doing business with him again. The reason why these issues do not show up more often in the forum have its origin in the lack of knowledge on the part of the buyer, an interest on the seller side to preserve his reputation, a similar view as mine regarding the privilege of being a member of SRP or some combination of these.

Ray's point regarding newbies is completely valid in my opinion. If you buy your first razor from the classified and the razor is not shave ready, how do you know? Also consider that the razors offered in the classified are often used as a low budget alternatives. If they are not shave ready, they simply lose their purpose. Or better yet, as a member, I have endorsed the razors from the classified. How can I responsibly ask new members to purchase their first razors from the classified section without knowing that they are going to be fully satisfied? This is one of my concerns now that I see that my experience seems to be more common than I thought. I feel certain degree of responsibility for what I post. In the same way, I would like to ask that others, namely the sellers, approach listing in the classified with a comparable attitude and become accountable for the products that they list.

Having said that, I also have to agree that it is hard to impose quality controls to the razors listed in the classified, at least, not without increasing the prices of the razors, the load for those that would ultimately have to be in charge of performing the quality control or both. I just do not see how this could be done in reality. maybe some people would volunteer to help with this but I find it hard....

Al raz.

Al stated a lot of important things I think. Really keeping some sort of testing system or anything like that sounds too daunting or even unfeasible to ever happen though (IMO). Now I do think the solution lies in holding sellers fully accountable and open to public 'embarrassment' for lack of a better term.

When I sell a razor I state my whole 'guarantee' and policy about returns, etc. I'd say it is a pretty good one allowing the buyer to either be happy or get his cash back. I got the idea from Gary's (Traveler's) sales. He basically takes back a razor anytime. On top of that I try to encourage an openness where if someone is unhappy with my service and/or product after contacting me about it I want them to post about it! I go to whatever it takes to make that not happen though. Now why can't we take this kind of stance with all sellers whether they like it or not? Public accountability. If the razor sucks and the seller won't give a refund right away– post about it without feeling a vulnerability to backlash. As a community it would benefit us all to understand and encourage this. THAT is where the 'self-policing' in the old B/S/T worked so well. Guys do have public problems here and there still. Recently someone selling a 'shave ready' razor was put to the test when after a whole lot of questioning he sent me the razor to test. It was no where near shave ready and I posted about it. He thanked me for it. He was then prompted by his own motivation to learn more and really try to get better as best he could. Worked out great. Now if all sellers could expect this kind of public response when things aren't resolved, we would be getting somewhere.

Not saying it is always the sellers fault or even the new guys because he rolled the perfectly good edge or had a terrible prep– but if we encourage more of a back and forth feedback between buyer and seller things may improve. FWIW there IS a feedback system in place in the classifieds. That's what the stars are next to certain people. I sometimes encourage guys to give me feedback and I do the same in return for them as a buyer. It is far from perfect but it's a start.

Well to expand on Alex's idea of accountability,how about making it a requirement to offer a money back guarantee if you sell a "shave ready" razor?
That would at least give noobs a safety net when purchasing razors in the classifieds.
To tell you the truth that would keep guys like me from selling shave ready razors. I'm fairly new at
this and while I have no problem honing my razors for myself I have a fairly light beard so I'm not really
sure whether my edges would work on someone with a heavy beard.

I don't really have an opinion on the question at hand, but I did want to chime in on a general mood in this thread. For a forum built upon helping new members learn, there seems to be a lot of scorn for us inexperienced shavers. Do we know what shave-ready means from the get go, no. But we've come here to learn. I'm new, but I've been reading for a while and I have yet to see a fellow newbie complain about the razor they have bought or not getting super close shaves.

The message has been put out by the long-timers among the forum, that to start straight razor shaving you have to expect stubble and some nicks along the way. But then maybe I am putting blinders on. For all I know my razor isn't shave-ready and that combined with my technique is the problem. But I highly doubt it's the razor's fault.

I see in this community men helping each other to be better. Not better shavers, but better in general. I'm constantly amazed at the lack of profanity here, which is rampant in other areas of the net. The hive holds each member to a higher expectation, and we stive to achieve that. That's why this passive aggressive newb bashing is so disheartening - it breaks with what I have come to see SRP as representing.

Ok, that's enough of that.

Durdensbuddy,I really don't believe it is meant to be newbie bashing. Folks are just bringing to light the problems that newbies have with razors. Remember we all know this because we were all there at one time or another. Everyone here has a first hand account of the things we are able to do to a razor as we learn this hobby. I feel the prevailing atmosphere of this thread is to make sure that when one of our new members buys a shave ready razor here they can eliminate the possibility of a poorly honed razor from the learning curve.

I don't think the green dots help in the members ability to hone a razor. I've aquired two. Not sure how exactly. I try to help & am always willing to add what i have picked up to a thread, but that doesn't reflect my honing abilities.
The whole shave ready thing has been a factor in my not selling blades in the classifieds as yet. I think i can get a razor there & i'm very happy with my razors, but i've not yet had that benchmark. I'd hate to sell a razor as shave ready & find the buyer disappointed in my abilities! I have no idea how the state of razor could be graded.

Certified shave ready is simply not practical. Let's figure $5 shipping eacy way and then you can't expect some group to certify these things for free. There's likely to be huge volume. If not now then in the future. Someone has to recieve the razor, check it, keep records that it was checked, and then mail it back. You're also looking at a weeks delay for the seller. If you added a week (minimum) and $15 (conservative) to the price of a $40 razor, that's over 1/3 the price of an inexpensive razor? Inexpensive razors would not be sold here. Most (all) sellers would opt not to claim and prep razors to list as "shave ready". Both buyer and seller would lose.

I think a user feedback mechanism (ala eBay) is the only viable option if something like this is to be implemented.

Yes, newbies probably complain the most about receiving a "shave ready" razor that isn't shave ready, and yes, it is probably most often a matter of technique and expectations, but how are they/we supposed to know which it is, when we as newbies read about some of the pros receiving "shave ready" razors that they claim are not shave ready. When we read this, it puts doubt in our minds about the edge of our razor.

It sounds to me like a solution to this problem might need to involve several steps. Perhaps the first could be something simple, such as adding a second field under the "Shave Ready?" field where it says "Shave Tested?" If someone checks both shave ready and shave tested, as a newbie, you can have some more confidence buying that particular razor. Someone else has shaved with the razor you are using, and after that shave, they still checked "shave ready," so it really must be shave ready. If it just says "Shave Ready: Yes," and the seller hasn't actually shaved with the razor, while it may be perfectly honed and perfectly sharp, there is some chance that something has gone awry with it and it just doesn't shave well. I suppose sellers could just be dishonest and check yes to shave tested even if they didn't, but that wouldn't be a whole lot different than saying it's shave ready using the current system, when it's not.

Another thing the "shave tested" field would accomplish, IMO, is to make sellers take a second and closer look at the sharpness of the razor. That is, it is likely, IMO, that many sellers, in order to stay competitive and make a fast sale, would want to check both shave ready and shave tested, and being the honest guys that they are, they would actually shave test the razors. Perhaps during these shave tests they may realize a problem that needs to be addressed.

For most sellers, even on the current system, when they check shave ready, they probably have already shaved with it, so this would be transparent to them. It seems that a big sticking point to the whole "shave ready" thing is that it varies from individual to individual, but I'm curious, is it generally accepted that if one person can actually complete a shave with the razor in question, that even though the edge might not be up to the next guy's standards, they too should at least be able to complete a reasonably comfortable shave with it? If so, maybe instead of having a "Shave Ready?" field, it could just be changed to "Shave Tested?" Because, as a newbie, that's really what you want. Some confidence that someone else has used the razor you are using, and that they had no problem shaving with it. If they could do it, it must be you, not the razor. And if there are some people who hone razors who have been doing it long enough to know when the razor is shave ready, without test shaving, then they may feel free to say "No" to the shave tested field, but explain some further details in the description, such as "I didn't have time to actually shave with this razor, but I'm an accomplished honemeister for forum members, and the razor is definitely shave ready. If you aren't satisfied with the edge, please contact me and we can work it out." In a case such as this, it's likely that the honemeisters forum experience will speak for itself anyway.

Just some thoughts.

I won't put words in the OP, Ray's mouth and then quote him but what I think the idea was to send a single razor to a selected member or members to confirm that the seller is capable of honing a razor to shave ready.

It was not intended that every razor someone puts up in the classifieds bearing that designation would be tested by the person or persons selected to critique the honing skills of the seller.

Admittedly the honing qualification system would be cumbersome and there are many variables in the YMMV of what one person thinks is sharp as opposed to another so I think that Churchill's suggestion of a policy of a no questions asked money back guarantee might be the solution.

The parameters could be satisfaction guaranteed and the razor must be returned within 7 days in the same condition in which it was sent. If Paypal payments were the only way the transaction could be completed the buyer would have the added protection of their pro-buyer refund policy.

As far as newbie bashing, that wasn't my intention. I was merely pointing out what anyone who has been on the forum has seen a few times in the past year. Below is an example illustrating that it is not a new phenomenon but even occurred at the turn of the nineteenth century.

All excellent thoughts pjrage. There may be more than one part to the problem. I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by RayG

Some pulled and were uncomfortable shavers, some required resetting the bevel.

Pulling and uncomfortable may be a matter of skin difference. What is perfectly acceptable and possibly even desireable for one person might be considered pulling and uncomfortable by another. Having to reset the bevel would be quite a different matter.

Then there is the definition of "shave ready". Not long ago someone sold some razors that they had tagged as "shave ready". Someone else notified the person that they weren't. The seller realized they had made a (honest) mistake and said so. I'm not sure if "shave tested" would have avoided that one. possibly. In this case I think some sort of seller rating system might have covered it? When you go over to the classifieds it's like a different forum. There aren't any post counts or green dits carried over from here and the user profile is completely separate from this forum. There are gold stars but I'm not sure exactly what they mean.

Where are the gold stars explained? If one clicks on the classifieds tab at the top of the page it takes you there and you get the high level list of classified areas. There is no general description and no description by the areas. If you select "razors" for example it takes you there and again there is no general blurb.