Thread: Classifieds/Honing Services

Not sure if I should put this here or somewhere else, but over the past few months I have observed quite a number of new SRP members who take up straight razor shaving, start honing, and very quickly begin to offer member services in the classifieds.

I have no problem with this, however it would be nice if there was some kind of way for other new members looking for these types of services, to ascertain the true experience/quality of the work they can expect to receive.

To illustrate : I have been honing my own razors now for approximately 12 months. It is possible for me to get a great (IMHO) shave ready edge on a razor, which produces a fantastic shave. My edges are not, IMHO, at the same level as the well known guys offering professional services, but from what I have seen recently, I could offer professional honing services at this point. Conceivably, I could charge $15 per razor, undercut the pros charging $20 per razor, and a newbie would think they were getting a great deal. The newbie would be wrong, and in my opinion, I would be ripping off our members.

To take this a step further, even services such as paypal have a verification process that confirms that you are who you say you are.

The answer to this issue is made even more complex, because the guys I would trust to verify another member's honing capabilities, are themselves offering such services and could be accused of having a conflict of interest in these matters (which would put them in an awkward position, which is not desirable either).

One solution to this problem would be to allow reviews of services by our members, however that has its own set of issues (i.e. if a newbie kills an edge due to poor stropping, its not the fault of the person who honed the blade, but it may be perceived that way by the newbie). IMHO if a razor is honed, it should be sent shave ready and the member shouldnt strop it before shaving - maybe that might be the answer.

In any case, I think we have an obligation to ensure our members are presented with adequate information that allows them to make the best decision they can - if they knowingly choose to send their razor to a newbie, then thats their choice, but to allow a practice to continue which puts our members at risk, is unwise in my opinion.

Anyway, I will leave it for the mods to ponder, and others (most notably those I refer to above ), to flame me.

Members currently have the option to leave feedback in the classifieds system.

For example, here are some feedback comments for Maximilian: Member Feedback - Straight Razor Place Classifieds

There ought be a better solution, but it seems there does exist now a sort of feedback system should one choose to dig for it

Wylie, this issue comes up now and again and I can only say, yeah. I agree with you on every point. But really, I can't imagine a satisfactory way to handle the issue. I mean, once you get into issues of approval/disapproval, you are basically GUARANTEEING conflict of one type or another, and even simple customer reviews are eventually going to cause some issues.

I hope wiser heads than mine can come up with a solution, but in the end it comes down to the same old thing: Caveat Emptor.

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

Members currently have the option to leave feedback in the classifieds system.

For example, here are some feedback comments for Maximilian: Member Feedback - Straight Razor Place Classifieds

There ought be a better solution, but it seems there does exist now a sort of feedback system should one choose to dig for it

Oops my bad. So how many newbies get burned by someone before they lose the ability to offer services? i.e. Do we have some sort of policy for this stuff?

Originally Posted by JimR

Wylie, this issue comes up now and again and I can only say, yeah. I agree with you on every point. But really, I can't imagine a satisfactory way to handle the issue. I mean, once you get into issues of approval/disapproval, you are basically GUARANTEEING conflict of one type or another, and even simple customer reviews are eventually going to cause some issues.

I hope wiser heads than mine can come up with a solution, but in the end it comes down to the same old thing: Caveat Emptor.

Hi Jim,

My thoughts exactly, but I feel we need to do something about it it and set some sort of policy in place to deal with these sorts of issues (even if its just that we have no policy and its dealt with on an adhoc/as needed basis)....otherwise I might start offering services!!

I agree with JimR. This has come up in the past and no adequate solution could be figured out.

Originally Posted by wedwards

Hi Jim,

My thoughts exactly, but I feel we need to do something about it it and set some sort of policy in place to deal with these sorts of issues (even if its just that we have no policy and its dealt with on an adhoc/as needed basis)....otherwise I might start offering services!!

If you start offering services maybe we can make it against the rules. I'll bring it up with the mod team.

I'm with you 100% on this one. I'm my own worst critic, but have to say that I have gotten to where I can put a good shaveable edge on a razor & bring razors back...too a point. Do I offer my services? Not really, I've offered to fix some things for some unfortunate folks, but I only charged them postage or cost of materials. I recently compared one of my razors to a well known "person", and the edge was as sharp IMO, just not as smooth or have that "majic" that a honemeister can do to a razor. Am I ready to offer my services on the classified's, no. Why? I guess I'm being honest with myself and future customers...if I ever "get there" & think I'm good enough.
Scott

That is significant issue for me personally, as well as for many others. If you are new to the forum and do a little reading, you will discover that Lynn and a few others are the go to guys for honing. Now, how does someone else, like oh, I don't know, maybe someone like me who wanted to get into honing actually accomplish getting into honing for others for a little money?

Well until last year, one option was to offer free honing for a while. This afforded two opportunities. First, it allowed a prospective honer, aka wannabe honemeister, to prove themselves AND to the general public that they could actually hone a razor. Now keep in mind the major distinction between someone who hones their own razors and a honemeister (I still hate that word--personal bias) is that a honemeister can hone virtually ANY razor. Second, and more important to me, it gave me the opportunity to prove to myself that I could hone for others. Part of that was the opportunity to have access to more razors than I could experience on my own. Despite owning something like 700-800 fixer upper razors, honing for others gave me access to a greater variety of razors.

What did I learn? First, honing as a service for others is WAY different than honing for myself. If I honed one of my own razors, there was no pressure and if I did not like the end result, I would just touch it up again--no problem and no rush. Honing for others led to CONSTANT self doubt. I was absolutely paranoid that the edge that I was happy with was not sufficient for the razor's owner. I grew up in Minnesota and I guess the Prairie Home Companion persona fits me. I am not one to toot my own horn or to have any level of trust in my own ability. Thus, my honing for others was a constant source of worry and self doubt. To make matters worse, the logistics of actually keeping track of the razors, keeping the owners informed about the razors, and getting to the post office to return the razors was a pain. Also, the number of people who screwed me over with postage due packages did not win me over very well either.

It was my goal to hone 500 razors for free before charging anyone. Unfortunately, I quickly discovered that many wanted to take advantage of my generosity. "Hi, I just bought a lot of 12 razors off of ebay for $25 and I was wondering if you could hone all of them up so I can sell them on ebay for $300." Because of many requests such as this, I decided to hone one razor for free and any extra razors to charge the relatively standard fee of $15. I felt guilty taking money but had to weed out the moochers. It was amazing the number of people who never responded back when I told them I would only hone one razor for free.

Now, this all seemed fine except for two problems. First, my free honing offer was taking money away from others who were offering honing for a fee. I was aware of this problem so that was part of the reason that I charged for additional razors beyond the one free honing. Given the number of people who never responded back after realizing that I would not hone 20 razors for them for free, I figured I did not divert too much income away from established honemeisters. Second, not everyone who subsequently began to offer free honing, and there were several, had my overdeveloped sense of self-doubt. Several others offered free honing for a brief time and then declared themselves to be flat out bona fide honemeisters. One guy who sent me the first three straight razors he'd ever touched in his life suddenly had a web-page touting his 20+ years of honing experience. Another guy who had no freaking clue about anything to do with straights suddenly was an expert in both honing and restorations and started charging for honing and was selling crap razors he had "restored" to newbies who had no clue that he had no clue.

So, justifiably so, the folks who run SRP noticed that the free honing offers were getting out of hand in producing undeserved honing reputation. They put an end to it and they were right to do it. Like just about everything else in life, there are those who will try to game the system in order to gain an advantage or get a buck.

Now, in direct response to your question, the problem with honing reviews is that even they can be tweaked. At least one of the guys offering free honing last year was exclusively selling to newbies, who had no clue what a sharp razor was. Such reviews were useless.

In my opinion, in this forum reputation is everything. If you do a good job, word will get around. If you do a bad job, you might fool a few or several newbies for a while but eventually you will be found out. After the weeding out of a few bad apples out to make a buck, I believe that pretty much everyone offering their services in the classifieds has built a sufficient reputation to earn the right to be there. At some point I would like to feel confident in my right to be there, especially given my pending unemployment. Whether I actually belong there or not though is irrelevant for one simple reason. Any schmuck can post a classified ad after being a member for three months and after 100 posts, but it would take a schmuck to decide to avail themselves of the services of such a schmuck without checking up on them.

You wrote "In any case, I think we have an obligation to ensure our members are presented with adequate information that allows them to make the best decision they can - if they knowingly choose to send their razor to a newbie, then thats their choice, but to allow a practice to continue which puts our members at risk, is unwise in my opinion."

I vehemently disagree. This entire forum is the result of well meaning individuals sharing their knowledge and talent. The number one individual is Lynn. SRP is his baby. He started it. He is the heart of it. If you are in doubt as to who you should send your razor to, then you should send it to Lynn. If someone choses to send their razor to anyone else, then they damn well ought to do their homework. Any idiot who just randomly picks someone out of the classifieds without checking them out within the forum is an idiot schmuck who deserves to be put at "risk." I don't believe SRP should have any responsibility to police those who offer their services. Anybody who is willing to put a three inch sharp blade against their throat should already grasp the concept of personal responsibility, and its consequences.

I now relinquish my soapbox, because I want to get back to honing.

Poor quality work will out itself in short order. I think the system might be fairly self-correcting. If you are no good, others will learn soon enough. I wouldn't expect much repeat business for those that turn out a poor product. That old saying: "You're lucky if a happy customer tells a single person, and an unhappy customer will tell 10 people."

I would offer to hone a razor for someone for free, with the understanding that they get what they pay for, for fun, and to hear from someone else where my edges were at, but if it ever gets to the point where I consider it work, and feel the need to charge for it, (and I put food on my table by charging for my craftmanship every day so I know whereof I speak) my own sense of pride would lead me to ensure that they were receiving a quality product... I mean, now I'd be doing it as work, for money, and my reputation would hang on it. If I want any more of it, it darn well better be good.

Isn't there a marketing term for this concept?

Whatever, I don't deal with unknown quantities with money i can't afford to lose. It's not like buying a used car from "some guy" with next month's mortgage payment...