Thread: Making my own soap.

nope. this is the basic italian soft soap recipe. to make cream out of it you'd need to add some stuff and whip it up.

what tallow brings to the recipe is stearic acid. it also brings oleic acid. for a bare bones recipe, straight stearic is better.

Originally Posted by Annixter

I think your recipe makes a shaving cream rather than a shaving soap. If you are only using potassium hydroxide, your finished product is about the consistency of hair styling gel (from my experience with liquid soapmaking). That's partially why people use potassium hydroxide as the lye in liquid soap recipes because they are able to take the finished cream and easily dilute it with water into a liquid soap. I think a shaving soap needs either sodium hydroxide or a mixture of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide (now my preference) to make it hard enough to be classified as soap and not cream. Essentially, from my understanding, if you can dig your finger into the cured product and remove a dollop, it's shaving cream and not soap.

On another note, have you considered using tallow in the recipe? A recipe using tallow will be superior in lather density/stability and moisturizing properties than one using only stearic acid and coconut oil. The addition of tallow might also firm up the finished product when using only potassium hydroxide to where it is more similar to shaving soap.

As for me, I use both potassium hydroxide and sodium hydroxide, the former in higher quantity. By doing so, I get a shaving cream of good consistency which can easily load a brush and make abundant lather.
I have never used tallow and, in my opinion, this is not fundamental in order to get a good lather with a moisturizing effect. There are plenty of shaving creams out there not using tallow while giving wonderful results.

Originally Posted by bridger

nope. this is the basic italian soft soap recipe. to make cream out of it you'd need to add some stuff and whip it up.

what tallow brings to the recipe is stearic acid. it also brings oleic acid. for a bare bones recipe, straight stearic is better.

While I am no soap chemist, my research leads me to a contrary understanding of terminology and the benefits of tallow. We are talking about semantics and splitting hairs to an extent, but I'm here to discuss things to further my own knowledge and for fun. The fundamental factor that separates a shaving cream from a shaving soap is the percentage of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide used. Soap equals a higher percentage of sodium hydroxide that results in a harder product; cream equals a higher percentage of potassium hydroxide that results in a softer product. A mixture of both creates differing degrees between the poles. Somewhere in that field of variants one crosses from soap into cream (I have no idea where), but we are talking about a pole if a recipe uses only potassium hydroxide. With this in mind, a batch using only sodium hydroxide makes hard soap and a batch using only potassium hydroxide makes a cream, whether whipped or not. Both go through saponification and can use the exact same ingredients, but one is hard soap and one is soft cream. From the ingredients lists on multiple commercial craft shaving soaps I've seen, there are no special ingredients that dictate what is soap and what is cream, aside possibly from some preservatives or thickeners to help with shelf life, packaging, and visual appeal of cream. Bridger (and others), if I'm mistaken in my understanding, I'd appreciate more information about soaps versus creams within the confines of our discussion.

As far as tallow goes, yes pure stearic acid has wonderful benefits for lather and stability, but tallow imparts more than just stearic acid and oleic acid. It also provides linoleic, myristic, and palmitic acids--none of which stearic acid provides. Compared to coconut oil, tallow provides 3 time more palmitic acid, and it has 24 times less lauric acid, which may be a better option for those who have dry skin. With the benefits of these added components over a strictly stearic acid and coconut oil recipe, I argue that a blend of all three is probably more beneficial.

Originally Posted by razorguy

I have never used tallow and, in my opinion, this is not fundamental in order to get a good lather with a moisturizing effect. There are plenty of shaving creams out there not using tallow while giving wonderful results.

I agree that tallow is not fundamental by any means. For my preference and dollar, tallow has benefits over non-tallow soaps I've used and is a cheap and readily available enough ingredient to make it very worthwhile in my recipes.

Originally Posted by Annixter

While I am no soap chemist, my research leads me to a contrary understanding of terminology and the benefits of tallow. We are talking about semantics and splitting hairs to an extent, but I'm here to discuss things to further my own knowledge and for fun. The fundamental factor that separates a shaving cream from a shaving soap is the percentage of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide used.
--------snip----------

well, if you want to define martin de candre shaving soap as a cream be my guest. to me it looks like soap, smells like soap, lathers like soap and handles like soap. I'll continue to call it soap.

the high stearic acid content of this soap makes it come out pretty hard for an all- potassium soap. it's definitely not a cream.

it's funny how some things get repeated on the internet so many times that people start taking it as gospel despite the obvious.

Originally Posted by Annixter

Bridger (and others), if I'm mistaken in my understanding, I'd appreciate more information about soaps versus creams within the confines of our discussion.

I guess it is also a matter of personal definition. Some makers define their products as soaps while the density would suggest to call it a cream. In my opinion, a soap is something very hard, just like a soap bar or near to that hardness, whereas a cream is the rest. It is however clear that a dominant quantity of potassium hydroxide makes a cream and, by reading shaving creams and soaps INCIs, this element is always found before sodium hydroxide, meaning its percentage is higher than the latter.
I would also consider the percentage of water for the definition of cream and soap.

Originally Posted by Annixter

I agree that tallow is not fundamental by any means. For my preference and dollar, tallow has benefits over non-tallow soaps I've used and is a cheap and readily available enough ingredient to make it very worthwhile in my recipes.

Tallow goes rancid quicker than stearic acid or coconut oil, therefore shortening product's life. As far as I am concerned, I have found a lot of non tallow based creams or soaps providing excellent results as well as being very cheap in price. Tcheon Fung Sing creams are an example of a non tallow based shaving cream sold at a very low price. (the price for 125g in Italy is about 1.50 euros).

Originally Posted by Annixter

The fundamental factor that separates a shaving cream from a shaving soap is the percentage of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide used.

I'd say the fundamental factor separating soaps from creams is consistency.

Originally Posted by bridger

I'd say the fundamental factor separating soaps from creams is consistency.

Yes, of course, and consistency is determined by the quantity of sodium hydroxide and potassium hydroxide. It is quite impossible to make a cream from sodium hydroxide only.

Originally Posted by bridger

well, if you want to define martin de candre shaving soap as a cream be my guest. to me it looks like soap, smells like soap, lathers like soap and handles like soap. I'll continue to call it soap.

You confuse the intent of my posts. I've never used martin de candre shaving soap and was never trying to define it; rather, I am interested in furthering the discussion of how to make shaving soap at home--the thread topic. I simply wanted more chemistry details from you about using only potassium hydroxide in a shaving (bar) soap recipe because it is common soapmaking knowledge that sodium hydroxide is used to make bar soap that in the shaving world is shaving soap, and potassium hydroxide is used to make soft or liquid soap (before dilution) that in the shaving world is shaving cream (before whipping). I assumed you were a chemistry authority on the difference between shaving soap and shaving cream because of your comments about needing more ingredients in a recipe to make cream (post #11) and not using clays and not using oils high in oleic acid (post #7), but I am mistaken in my assumption. I won't waste our time asking you any more soapmaking chemistry questions.

Originally Posted by bridger

it's funny how some things get repeated on the internet so many times that people start taking it as gospel despite the obvious.

Unnecessary, ambiguous, cliche statements fall in that group of repeated thing too.

Originally Posted by razorguy

I guess it is also a matter of personal definition. . . .

I would also consider the percentage of water for the definition of cream and soap. . . .

Tallow goes rancid quicker than stearic acid or coconut oil, therefore shortening product's life. As far as I am concerned, I have found a lot of non tallow based creams or soaps providing excellent results as well as being very cheap in price. Tcheon Fung Sing creams are an example of a non tallow based shaving cream sold at a very low price. (the price for 125g in Italy is about 1.50 euros).

Well put. The water content would make a large difference, as would using softening oils in a cream I suppose.

With tallow, I'm concerned with small batches for personal use, so rancidity isn't a concern; however, I can see why manufacturers desiring shelf life might stay away from animal products. Before I stated making my own soap, I wished I could have found a good commercial shaving soap/cream for that price.

Originally Posted by Annixter

Well put. The water content would make a large difference, as would using softening oils in a cream I suppose.

Right.

Originally Posted by Annixter

With tallow, I'm concerned with small batches for personal use, so rancidity isn't a concern; however, I can see why manufacturers desiring shelf life might stay away from animal products. Before I stated making my own soap, I wished I could have found a good commercial shaving soap/cream for that price.

In my opinion, tallow based soaps/creams goes rancid quicker than non tallow based ones. As for animal products, we should consider stearic acid can be made from animal fats as well as from vegetable oils or fats only.
However, stearic acid made from animal fats is usually mixed with palmitic acid and it seems to have a longer life than tallow.