Thread: Some thoughts on stropping

Originally Posted by mparker762

I suspect the admonition against testing honed razors on the thumbnail may have come from the '61 textbook. Checking back with it I see it recommends against testing a stropped razor on the thumbnail, which probably only means you'll need to re-strop it after the test.

It's testing on the thumbnail after honing, on the thumb pad after stropping.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

This would also explain the light stropping effect/success many members have. The combination of high grit and pressure (I only go out to 8k typically) may be compounding errors.

So now, how about the effect of the aggressive "slapping" method of stropping. That must produce quite a bit of pressure on the blade yet it seems to, at least for some (and I think Alan you are one of those? I've used that method too), produce good results.

More grist for the mill...

Scott

Just afew thoughts here guys- I've always accepted the fact that stropping dressed the edge and never really questioned just what dressing really means or if you could overdress.

Back when I did the Grand experiment the final conclusion was that 60x gave the best edge. Doing more did nothing further. It didn't make the edge better and it didn't make it worse.

As far as slapping the razor on the strop goes (and I remember when barbers did that) I wonder if the pressure they exerted during the slap was really any more than we use but it was like going into a japanese restaurant and they cook at your table and thats part of the show. I wonder if that wasn't part of the barbers show and he was so good at it that the edge of the razor never touched the leather during the slap. Its all in the wrist and things aren't always what they appear to be eh?

I don't really know, I'm a little lost. I can see now why guys who have a rolled edge can still shave with it, that has eluded me for a long time. I thought, rolled=unusable. Feathering may be a separate issue but their actually may be very few "rolled" edges actually experienced.

I need to try a work up the magnification on my micro and see if I can overstrop and figure out what it looks like.

Slapping, I suppose could prevent feathering, if feathering is what I am imagining is happening. I don't think I've done adequate testing with this hypothises in mind. I simply slap because every few weeks it seems to need it. Thus, slapping and running the edge over a thumbnail might be doing the same thing to the edge.

I don't think you can replicate a slap with only the spine hitting the strop.

I wonder if this explains the variances in strop slack, with stropping with slack refining the edge, as I've heard so many say.

Bigspender- I know you've got personal ties to that experiment. So I'm going to try and tread lightly.

If 3-5 light laps are perfect for maintaining an edge out for 6 months to a year, than I can see how 30-60 laps might both be too much for extended use beyond a month.

I had trouble following your experiment, if you remember, because my experience at the time was very contraindicated to what you were doing. I was still only using 5-10 passes and all the experimenting between 30-60 (and even a few suggestions to go out to 90) made me a little dizzy. Either way, my thoughts are in how to go waaaaaay beyond 2 months.

Makes sense? I think if you take the 30 days and at the end of it do a thumbnail test you would unfeather the edge and be able to start all over again.

And more germane to this thread, how to fix rolled edges and how they get created.

Scott- Do you do a few thumbnail/thumbpad tests on your edges as they wear during the year you say you get between honings?

Either way, I've got an easy experiment to conduct. I'll put away the hone, stop slapping the razor and start thumbnail testing every 30 days or so. Seems unlikely that that would extend the time between honings, but what the heck, huh?

I figured the draw is from the increased total surface area of the smooth bevel and spine a straightened edge makes for (drag). Sorta like going from / _ to _ _ or tiptoes vs planted soles of a shoe.
Like trying to drag one of those damned Fusion blades over your skin without the vibration to help it skip across; a lot of flat surface area.
I suck at writing so maybe consider your hand palm-down on a table. If you curl your fingers in or back a bit, and drag your hand, then flatten your hand, the drag increases. That's just what I been thinking about stropping.
I do better with shortened strokes across my strop, because the further off I am, I can tell the slight weight that does bear down would focus more on the edge than the spine, just some geometry issue.
I unshave-readied a couple razors just by stropping.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

...If 3-5 light laps are perfect for maintaining an edge out for 6 months to a year, than I can see how 30-60 laps might both be too much for extended use beyond a month. ...

...or, the extras may be neutral? TheBigSpendur concluded from his experiment there was a point where more was neither better nor worse. Could be the same thing, just different points?

May seem like a big difference until you think of stropping as pulling across the strop in a consistent plane that works to align the edge with that plane. When the edge is aligned (parallel with the strop) theoretically, a consistent, flat pulling in that same plane will cease to do anything at some point. (Picture a razor "path" that travels parallel with and on the strop because that's it's intended path not because it's riding against the strop... Makes sense to me, ignore if not for you )

Inspired by this discussion, I tried a minimal stropping of 3 pass linen, 5 pass leather after this morning's shave. I tried HHT post shave/pre-stropping and compared to post stropping. Even that minimal stropping made a noticable difference. More anecdotal than scientific, but something I will continue to experiment with.

- Dale

The more I think about it the idea of thumbnail testing to increase the time between honings is probably pretty silly, yet I'll continue with a short experiment.

I think the Bigspender's experiment tested 3 hypotheses of honing interval. What I intend to do is add a new variable. So, not 30, not 30 before and 30 after, and not 60 before, but adding a thumbnail test. So that should be a whole seperate test, and I'll do whatever stropping I sense is right at the time. I.E. strop until I feel a draw and then stop, or at some point strop way beyond that point and see if extra stropping can lead to dulling and whether it can be fixed with this method.

Today I ran the blade over my nail 4 times and stropped only 5 passes to bias the experiment a little against my hypothesis. The shave was ok, maybe a 6 out of 10. This week I'll only strop about 10 times each day and then see if I ever get to a point where I feel I've overstroped and try and fix it with a thumbnail test.

I may be able to simply overstrop or roll an edge and simply try fixing it a few times with the thumbnail. At this point that option makes more sense. I can try that with other razors as I go. I'm not sure I actually know how to roll an edge or just feather it with too much stropping.

I get the feeling I can feather out the edge with stropping and unfeather it with the thumbnail. I think the optimum is a balance between the two and perhaps that sits around 30-60 passes? Probably with light pressure?

This morning I also tried another razor and a slack strop and that did not work out well at all. Enough of that idea already.

I also think I will stop using the term experiment, as this will likely be too unscientific and I have no one to convince but myself.

I'm feelin' pretty good this friday night, so I'm just gonna say –

Alan you rock. You're a freakin' scientist. We all benefit from your endless crazy experiments.

I'm still using your strop-on-ashed-linen thing –

and I've been shaving monogamously with the same damn monserrat razor for two months straight and haven't had to hone it yet. The thing seems to get better and better.

I know that's nothing for honedright and a few other guys, but for a guy that never got more than 7 shaves out of a razor before I call it results.

Happy weekend.

The idea behind the Grand Experiment was a practical thing to see if more stropping allowed the razor the go longer between honing. Its as simple as that. There are many variables which can affect the result so the scientific method is not applicable to this kind of thing. It was just taking three razors, two identical in brand and model and a third as close as I could get, same brand and based upon recommendations by members set the standards as to the number of strokes and the before and after stropping. I've often times said that someone else should duplicate the experiment but there have been no takers.

I would be careful about using draw as any indicator because some strops have none and it can vary even with the same strop between razors based on the grind and size and whether the strop was last dressed and I'm not sure the temperature and humidity affects it or not. Just a thought.

Originally Posted by dylandog

I'm feelin' pretty good this friday night, so I'm just gonna say –

Alan you rock. You're a freakin' scientist. We all benefit from your endless crazy experiments.

I'm still using your strop-on-ashed-linen thing –

and I've been shaving monogamously with the same damn monserrat razor for two months straight and haven't had to hone it yet. The thing seems to get better and better.

I know that's nothing for honedright and a few other guys, but for a guy that never got more than 7 shaves out of a razor before I call it results.

Happy weekend.

I'll second the kudos. It's just fun and inspiring to 'listen' to Allan, Scott and TheBigSpendur kick this stuff around. Like dylandog, I'm reaping the benefits of your years of experience. Plus, this is driving me back to my barber manual, past posts and reminding myself to try to take my technique up a traditional notch or two. Fun stuff. Thanks Gents.

- Dale