Strop Width, X Pattern and Hot Dog Buns

What the @#&*, you say?

Let me esplain...

There's an issue over whether or not the X pattern in stropping is really necessary. Is it just a means to hit every part of the straight razor at once, or does the X pattern have a more functional purpose?

Thus, some choose the 3" wide strop. That way they don't need to do the X pattern. Since the width of the 3" gets the whole razor with a simple back-and-forth up-and-down-the-strop stroke all at once, why bother?

But if that was all there was to stropping, why did the old time strop makers make their strops 2.25" wide?

Is it the same as the hot dog makers and the hot dog bun bakers? You know, 8 hot dogs in a pack, but only 6 buns to a bag. Why can't they just make them the same?? I know, it's just a clever ploy to get us to buy more bags of buns. Those bastards.

If the X pattern wasn't necessary, and a 3" wide strop would eliminate it's use, then why the heck didn't those old-timers just make all their strops 3" wide? Were they daft?

And, did those same guys just stop making strops, and start making hot dog buns instead? Just to piss us off...


Scott

yea and why did they make those tiny barbers hones and narrow regular hones. They are all trying to screw us eh?

Yea, more Socratic stuff huh? Damn barbers! What did they know about shaving anyway.

Well, I don't get the bun analogy at all, but that's probably because I'm Australian and we get them in bags of a dozen....;)

I'm going to bite the bullet here and play grasshopper.... The way I see it, striations in the bevel are running from tip toward heel like this from X pattern honing (edge on left, spine on right):

Tip
/
/
/
Heel

Unless I've completely misinterpreted X pattern stropping for the last 2 years (entirely possible, I might add :o), if a strop were to impart microscopic marks on the edge, they would look like:

Tip
\
\
\
Heel

So to me it looks like X pattern stropping is an "against the grain" process.

What does this mean? I haven't thought about it enough to know yet (I'm grasshopper, remember).

But here's a thought. Stick your arm out in front of you and make a backhand tennis swing a few times, keeping your upper arm locked. What motion does your hand make through the air? For me it's an arc in pretty much the same pattern as an X pattern stopping technique. Maybe the old-timers simply knew about the natural ergonomics of a stropping motion on a long-ish piece of leather. Combine that with the fact that, as a general rule, old-timers were parsimonious old buggers, and viola! Narrow strops.

Case closed. :)

Now, I'm hungry. And for some reason I feel like a hot dog...

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

Well, I don't get the bun analogy at all, but that's probably because I'm Australian and we get them in bags of a dozen....;)

I'm going to bite the bullet here and play grasshopper.... The way I see it, striations in the bevel are running from tip toward heel like this from X pattern honing (edge on left, spine on right):

Tip
/
/
/
Heel

Unless I've completely misinterpreted X pattern stropping for the last 2 years (entirely possible, I might add :o), if a strop were to impart microscopic marks on the edge, they would look like:

Tip
\
\
\
Heel

So to me it looks like X pattern stropping is an "against the grain" process.

What does this mean? I haven't thought about it enough to know yet (I'm grasshopper, remember).

But here's a thought. Stick your arm out in front of you and make a backhand tennis swing a few times, keeping your upper arm locked. What motion does your hand make through the air? For me it's an arc in pretty much the same pattern as an X pattern stopping technique. Maybe the old-timers simply knew about the natural ergonomics of a stropping motion on a long-ish piece of leather. Combine that with the fact that, as a general rule, old-timers were parsimonious old buggers, and viola! Narrow strops.

Case closed. :)

Now, I'm hungry. And for some reason I feel like a hot dog...

James.

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Eureaka!! You've got it!!! (Now what the hell did you just post?) :p


Scott

And there are many paddle strops only 1.5 inches wide.

What does it all mean?

Who knows? But if we consider the discussion of what stropping actually does, there should be no difference other than the fact that a thinner strop puts a bit more pressure on the edge because the ratio of weight to contact area is decreased, thereby slightly speeding up any edge aligning that needs to be done (if you consider all other variables to be constant).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

The way I see it, striations in the bevel are running from tip toward heel like this from X pattern honing (edge on left, spine on right):

Tip
/
/
/
Heel

Unless I've completely misinterpreted X pattern stropping for the last 2 years (entirely possible, I might add :o), if a strop were to impart microscopic marks on the edge, they would look like:

Tip
\
\
\
Heel

So to me it looks like X pattern stropping is an "against the grain" process.

---

Actually James, you kinda lost me at that second part. The way I see it, the stropping (at least the way I'm stropping) goes right along with the "marks" created by X pattern honing, not against them. So we're probably stropping differently from each other.


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

But if we consider the discussion of what stropping actually does....

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That is the discussion. And it appears that I think it does something different from what others think it does.

And the fact that what I'm experiencing is different from what many others (with a few exceptions) are experiencing tells me that I could be on to something that may be of value to anyone willing to try it out.


Scott

I think I see what you are saying.

If the x in stropping exactly replicates the x in honing thus the action of stropping reinforces the edge built by honing. That way your stropping by working in exactly the same direction might be, rather than just smoothing out the edge, actually restoring the shape imparted to it by the stone so by stropping correctly you can greatly extend the time between trips to the hone.

Seems simple to me:thinking:

Of course I refined my stropping technique by watching your youtube video about a hundred times, that might have something to do with why I get the sense that my razors, like yours, see the hones much more seldom than is average.:cool: Though I don't think I have reached your level just yet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Wildtim

I think I see what you are saying.

If the x in stropping exactly replicates the x in honing thus the action of stropping reinforces the edge built by honing. That way your stropping by working in exactly the same direction might be, rather than just smoothing out the edge, actually restoring the shape imparted to it by the stone so by stropping correctly you can greatly extend the time between trips to the hone.

Seems simple to me:thinking:

Of course I refined my stropping technique by watching your youtube video about a hundred times, that might have something to do with why I get the sense that my razors, like yours, see the hones much more seldom than is average.:cool: Though I don't think I have reached your level just yet.

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Yes Tim, I think you are following my point.


Scott

I was going to say I told you so Scott, but I changed my mind!;):p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

That is the discussion.

Scott

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No, I meant the discussion on stropping pure and simple, the discussion in this thread is about how the x pattern increases the effectiveness of said pure and simple stropping.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy into it whole heartedly is because, as we've discussed before, there may be no correlation between the direction that the scratches run relative to the edge and the actual cutting properties. Since on the microscopic level, the edge is actually dull (it is blunt, but only about .4 microns wide, so it cuts hair because a hair is around 20 microns wide) and those scratches stop just short of the very tip of the cutting bevel.

So, effectively, the strop is not touching the very edge and the scratches are just sliding along on the leather's surface, not doing much of anything.

It makes logical sense that continuing with a consistent motion should be superior, but the physical properties are at odds with our intuitive notions, so it's hard to say what is really causing the benefits you are touting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

Actually James, you kinda lost me at that second part. The way I see it, the stropping (at least the way I'm stropping) goes right along with the "marks" created by X pattern honing, not against them. So we're probably stropping differently from each other.


Scott

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OK - that explains a lot. When I hone I hone North-South. On the "toward me" stroke (right-handed) I start with the tip off the left side of the hone and end with the heel off the right side of the hone - top left to bottom right - which is why I end up with the pattern of the striations I showed before.

I do pretty much the same when I strop, except the edge follows the spine. So, for the same side of the edge as I just mentioned in honing, the stropping stroke is the "away from me" stroke. I start that with the heel just on the right side of the strop and end up with the heel off the right side of the strop at the point where I'd flip the razor - bottom right to top left, if you know what I mean.

Actually, a simpler way to put it is that I use exactly the same X-pattern on the strop as I do on the hone, except the side of the edge that is touching the media (stone or leather) is opposite. Is that not how others do it? Or perhaps I screwed up the striation pattern visualisation picture in my previous post???

James.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

No, I meant the discussion on stropping pure and simple, the discussion in this thread is about how the x pattern increases the effectiveness of said pure and simple stropping.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy into it whole heartedly is because, as we've discussed before, there may be no correlation between the direction that the scratches run relative to the edge and the actual cutting properties. Since on the microscopic level, the edge is actually dull (it is blunt, but only about .4 microns wide, so it cuts hair because a hair is around 20 microns wide) and those scratches stop just short of the very tip of the cutting bevel.

So, effectively, the strop is not touching the very edge and the scratches are just sliding along on the leather's surface, not doing much of anything.

It makes logical sense that continuing with a consistent motion should be superior, but the physical properties are at odds with our intuitive notions, so it's hard to say what is really causing the benefits you are touting.

---

Ok Russel. I understand your points. I would just like to see those same microphotographs, but with an edge honed and stropped per my methods (straight razor of course).

I would gladly drop my theory, hypothesis, whatever, but at the moment there is no strong evidence to contradict my ideas (if you consider that the current photos are a small sampling and probably don't take into account that there could be other ways to strop an edge more effectively). If my razor edge looked just like the ones in the current photos, I would happily concede that there is somthing else going on.


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

OK - that explains a lot. When I hone I hone North-South. On the "toward me" stroke (right-handed) I start with the tip off the left side of the hone and end with the heel off the right side of the hone - top left to bottom right - which is why I end up with the pattern of the striations I showed before.

I do pretty much the same when I strop, except the edge follows the spine. So, for the same side of the edge as I just mentioned in honing, the stropping stroke is the "away from me" stroke. I start that with the heel just on the right side of the strop and end up with the heel off the right side of the strop at the point where I'd flip the razor - bottom right to top left, if you know what I mean.

Actually, a simpler way to put it is that I use exactly the same X-pattern on the strop as I do on the hone, except the side of the edge that is touching the media (stone or leather) is opposite. Is that not how others do it? Or perhaps I screwed up the striation pattern visualisation picture in my previous post???

James.

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James, the big problem, at least for me, is some really abstract mental visualiztion gymnastics going on here!

If only we could all just show each other, wouldn't it be so much simpler....


Scott

Yes, much simpler. I'll try to figure out a way to show it today and post back.

James.

Well, after thinking about it I decided a video might be the best way to show what I mean when I say that stropping goes the opposite way to the bevel striations created when honing.

Here's my attempt. Hopefully I haven't misinterpreted what is being discussed (I do that a fair bit). Please feel free to laugh heartily if this is way off the mark. Oh and also please note that I employed a voice actor for this video - my voice sounds like an Aussie version of Sean Connery, or so I've been told....:w

Please note that the video is short but fat - dialup users might want to sit this one out...

Bevel Striations - Proudly sponsored by Crayola!

James.

James,

I am awed at your ingenuity! What a great idea.

And, your demonstration confirms to me that we do indeed strop differently! But it also seems to confirm the diagonal striation pattern from honing that I did mention (at least with crayons. I'd still like to go all the way and look at my actual razor edges with the microphotographs, but how that will be possible I don't know).

Now I'm tempted to duplicate your experiment using my stropping method and see if there is any difference.


Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

James,

I am awed at your ingenuity! What a great idea.

And, your demonstration confirms to me that we do indeed strop differently! But it also seems to confirm the diagonal striation pattern from honing that I did mention (at least with crayons. I'd still like to go all the way and look at my actual razor edges with the microphotographs, but how that will be possible I don't know).

Now I'm tempted to duplicate your experiment using my stropping method and see if there is any difference.


Scott

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Yes, there's definitely a diagonal striation pattern imparted by the hone when you do the X pattern - sometimes I can see it with the naked eye, particularly with a low grit hone on a wedge's wide bevel. It gets steeper if you angle the heel forward (like the 45 degrees thing), or if you have a shorter hone, as far as I can tell. I think theoretically the striations will vary between 0 degrees (perpendicular to the edge) and 90 degrees (parallel to the edge).

I'd be really interested to see what the pattern looks like with your stropping technique Scott. For now, I'm off to study your stropping video again!

James.

James, I really need to make another video. In the current one, it's hard to see exactly what is going on, even for me. I'll need to slow down the stroke and shoot from a different angle to make it easier to see.

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

James, I really need to make another video. In the current one, it's hard to see exactly what is going on, even for me. I'll need to slow down the stroke and shoot from a different angle to make it easier to see.

Scott

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That's no problem Scott - I've done a bit of searching as well and realise that you start with the tip leading, is that right? But you still X pattern in the usual way on the strop? Anyway, I really like your video - the right hand of fury!! Not to mention the fingers - I'm pretty sure my poor fingers will never be able to flip a razor that quickly or with that amount of accuracy.

Anyway, I've been doing some more visualisation with the help of crayons, of course:) I think the only way to get the stropping pattern exactly matching the honing pattern is if the X went the opposite way, even with the tip leading. I'm not completely sure about that, but so far the only way I've been able to get the striations parallel is by doing the \ part of the X on the "away from me" stroke and the / part of the X on the "toward me" stroke (tip leading). This makes sense to me because it exactly matches, but in reverse, the stroke used on the hone for that side of the edge.

That is, if you strop in the \ direction away from you (tip leading) and stop at the end (leave the razor on the strop unflipped), you've just traced the exact path (but in reverse) of a heel leading hone stroke for that side of the edge, thus giving parallel striations. Does that make sense, or am I going crazy again? (must update my meds....).

James.

Yes, James, you've almost got it. Now just imagine a "scything" sort of motion as the razor travels (of course with the back of the razor leading). The point starts at the top edge of the strop and curves down and across ending near the bottom edge, just further up, or down, the strop. It is an X where the two strokes meet in the middle, but an X with elongated and slightly curving arms. If that makes any sense.

Scott

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

It is an X where the two strokes meet in the middle, but an X with elongated and slightly curving arms.

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So, if your stroke is curved, isn't there some point where you are no longer stropping parallel the striations on the edge?

I mean if the goal is to reproduce the motion of honing and thus maximize the stropping effectiveness, you would have to exactly reproduce the straight, angled stroke. Correct?

Otherwise you have the same scenario as with any other stropping method, the scratches sliding around on the leather.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by honedright

If my razor edge looked just like the ones in the current photos, I would happily concede that there is somthing else going on.

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The problem is that it has been shown that leather doesn't abrade the steel to any significant degree (even on the microscopic scale), the only thing that stropping does is "push" the irregularities along the edge back into a line. So while it would be very informative for all of us to have an electron microscope at our disposal, there is unlikely to be anything astoundingly different from what is in the Verhoeven study.

I mean, if there's no abrasion going on, then the edge can only be aligned so much before there is nothing left to fix about it and any method is as good as any other and there is some other cause of your edges lasting so much longer.