Thread: Strop Width, X Pattern and Hot Dog Buns

Well, I don't get the bun analogy at all, but that's probably because I'm Australian and we get them in bags of a dozen....

I'm going to bite the bullet here and play grasshopper.... The way I see it, striations in the bevel are running from tip toward heel like this from X pattern honing (edge on left, spine on right):

Tip
/
/
/
Heel

Unless I've completely misinterpreted X pattern stropping for the last 2 years (entirely possible, I might add ), if a strop were to impart microscopic marks on the edge, they would look like:

Tip
\
\
\
Heel

So to me it looks like X pattern stropping is an "against the grain" process.

What does this mean? I haven't thought about it enough to know yet (I'm grasshopper, remember).

But here's a thought. Stick your arm out in front of you and make a backhand tennis swing a few times, keeping your upper arm locked. What motion does your hand make through the air? For me it's an arc in pretty much the same pattern as an X pattern stopping technique. Maybe the old-timers simply knew about the natural ergonomics of a stropping motion on a long-ish piece of leather. Combine that with the fact that, as a general rule, old-timers were parsimonious old buggers, and viola! Narrow strops.

Case closed.

Now, I'm hungry. And for some reason I feel like a hot dog...

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Well, I don't get the bun analogy at all, but that's probably because I'm Australian and we get them in bags of a dozen....

I'm going to bite the bullet here and play grasshopper.... The way I see it, striations in the bevel are running from tip toward heel like this from X pattern honing (edge on left, spine on right):

Tip
/
/
/
Heel

Unless I've completely misinterpreted X pattern stropping for the last 2 years (entirely possible, I might add ), if a strop were to impart microscopic marks on the edge, they would look like:

Tip
\
\
\
Heel

So to me it looks like X pattern stropping is an "against the grain" process.

What does this mean? I haven't thought about it enough to know yet (I'm grasshopper, remember).

But here's a thought. Stick your arm out in front of you and make a backhand tennis swing a few times, keeping your upper arm locked. What motion does your hand make through the air? For me it's an arc in pretty much the same pattern as an X pattern stopping technique. Maybe the old-timers simply knew about the natural ergonomics of a stropping motion on a long-ish piece of leather. Combine that with the fact that, as a general rule, old-timers were parsimonious old buggers, and viola! Narrow strops.

Case closed.

Now, I'm hungry. And for some reason I feel like a hot dog...

James.

Eureaka!! You've got it!!! (Now what the hell did you just post?)


Scott

And there are many paddle strops only 1.5 inches wide.

What does it all mean?

Who knows? But if we consider the discussion of what stropping actually does, there should be no difference other than the fact that a thinner strop puts a bit more pressure on the edge because the ratio of weight to contact area is decreased, thereby slightly speeding up any edge aligning that needs to be done (if you consider all other variables to be constant).

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

But if we consider the discussion of what stropping actually does....

That is the discussion. And it appears that I think it does something different from what others think it does.

And the fact that what I'm experiencing is different from what many others (with a few exceptions) are experiencing tells me that I could be on to something that may be of value to anyone willing to try it out.


Scott

I think I see what you are saying.

If the x in stropping exactly replicates the x in honing thus the action of stropping reinforces the edge built by honing. That way your stropping by working in exactly the same direction might be, rather than just smoothing out the edge, actually restoring the shape imparted to it by the stone so by stropping correctly you can greatly extend the time between trips to the hone.

Seems simple to me

Of course I refined my stropping technique by watching your youtube video about a hundred times, that might have something to do with why I get the sense that my razors, like yours, see the hones much more seldom than is average. Though I don't think I have reached your level just yet.

Originally Posted by Wildtim

I think I see what you are saying.

If the x in stropping exactly replicates the x in honing thus the action of stropping reinforces the edge built by honing. That way your stropping by working in exactly the same direction might be, rather than just smoothing out the edge, actually restoring the shape imparted to it by the stone so by stropping correctly you can greatly extend the time between trips to the hone.

Seems simple to me

Of course I refined my stropping technique by watching your youtube video about a hundred times, that might have something to do with why I get the sense that my razors, like yours, see the hones much more seldom than is average. Though I don't think I have reached your level just yet.

Yes Tim, I think you are following my point.


Scott

I was going to say I told you so Scott, but I changed my mind!

Originally Posted by honedright

That is the discussion.

Scott

No, I meant the discussion on stropping pure and simple, the discussion in this thread is about how the x pattern increases the effectiveness of said pure and simple stropping.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy into it whole heartedly is because, as we've discussed before, there may be no correlation between the direction that the scratches run relative to the edge and the actual cutting properties. Since on the microscopic level, the edge is actually dull (it is blunt, but only about .4 microns wide, so it cuts hair because a hair is around 20 microns wide) and those scratches stop just short of the very tip of the cutting bevel.

So, effectively, the strop is not touching the very edge and the scratches are just sliding along on the leather's surface, not doing much of anything.

It makes logical sense that continuing with a consistent motion should be superior, but the physical properties are at odds with our intuitive notions, so it's hard to say what is really causing the benefits you are touting.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

No, I meant the discussion on stropping pure and simple, the discussion in this thread is about how the x pattern increases the effectiveness of said pure and simple stropping.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy into it whole heartedly is because, as we've discussed before, there may be no correlation between the direction that the scratches run relative to the edge and the actual cutting properties. Since on the microscopic level, the edge is actually dull (it is blunt, but only about .4 microns wide, so it cuts hair because a hair is around 20 microns wide) and those scratches stop just short of the very tip of the cutting bevel.

So, effectively, the strop is not touching the very edge and the scratches are just sliding along on the leather's surface, not doing much of anything.

It makes logical sense that continuing with a consistent motion should be superior, but the physical properties are at odds with our intuitive notions, so it's hard to say what is really causing the benefits you are touting.

Ok Russel. I understand your points. I would just like to see those same microphotographs, but with an edge honed and stropped per my methods (straight razor of course).

I would gladly drop my theory, hypothesis, whatever, but at the moment there is no strong evidence to contradict my ideas (if you consider that the current photos are a small sampling and probably don't take into account that there could be other ways to strop an edge more effectively). If my razor edge looked just like the ones in the current photos, I would happily concede that there is somthing else going on.


Scott

Originally Posted by honedright

If my razor edge looked just like the ones in the current photos, I would happily concede that there is somthing else going on.

The problem is that it has been shown that leather doesn't abrade the steel to any significant degree (even on the microscopic scale), the only thing that stropping does is "push" the irregularities along the edge back into a line. So while it would be very informative for all of us to have an electron microscope at our disposal, there is unlikely to be anything astoundingly different from what is in the Verhoeven study.

I mean, if there's no abrasion going on, then the edge can only be aligned so much before there is nothing left to fix about it and any method is as good as any other and there is some other cause of your edges lasting so much longer.