Thread: Strop Width, X Pattern and Hot Dog Buns

I was going to say I told you so Scott, but I changed my mind!

Originally Posted by honedright

That is the discussion.

Scott

No, I meant the discussion on stropping pure and simple, the discussion in this thread is about how the x pattern increases the effectiveness of said pure and simple stropping.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy into it whole heartedly is because, as we've discussed before, there may be no correlation between the direction that the scratches run relative to the edge and the actual cutting properties. Since on the microscopic level, the edge is actually dull (it is blunt, but only about .4 microns wide, so it cuts hair because a hair is around 20 microns wide) and those scratches stop just short of the very tip of the cutting bevel.

So, effectively, the strop is not touching the very edge and the scratches are just sliding along on the leather's surface, not doing much of anything.

It makes logical sense that continuing with a consistent motion should be superior, but the physical properties are at odds with our intuitive notions, so it's hard to say what is really causing the benefits you are touting.

Originally Posted by honedright

Actually James, you kinda lost me at that second part. The way I see it, the stropping (at least the way I'm stropping) goes right along with the "marks" created by X pattern honing, not against them. So we're probably stropping differently from each other.


Scott

OK - that explains a lot. When I hone I hone North-South. On the "toward me" stroke (right-handed) I start with the tip off the left side of the hone and end with the heel off the right side of the hone - top left to bottom right - which is why I end up with the pattern of the striations I showed before.

I do pretty much the same when I strop, except the edge follows the spine. So, for the same side of the edge as I just mentioned in honing, the stropping stroke is the "away from me" stroke. I start that with the heel just on the right side of the strop and end up with the heel off the right side of the strop at the point where I'd flip the razor - bottom right to top left, if you know what I mean.

Actually, a simpler way to put it is that I use exactly the same X-pattern on the strop as I do on the hone, except the side of the edge that is touching the media (stone or leather) is opposite. Is that not how others do it? Or perhaps I screwed up the striation pattern visualisation picture in my previous post???

James.

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

No, I meant the discussion on stropping pure and simple, the discussion in this thread is about how the x pattern increases the effectiveness of said pure and simple stropping.

The reason I'm hesitant to buy into it whole heartedly is because, as we've discussed before, there may be no correlation between the direction that the scratches run relative to the edge and the actual cutting properties. Since on the microscopic level, the edge is actually dull (it is blunt, but only about .4 microns wide, so it cuts hair because a hair is around 20 microns wide) and those scratches stop just short of the very tip of the cutting bevel.

So, effectively, the strop is not touching the very edge and the scratches are just sliding along on the leather's surface, not doing much of anything.

It makes logical sense that continuing with a consistent motion should be superior, but the physical properties are at odds with our intuitive notions, so it's hard to say what is really causing the benefits you are touting.

Ok Russel. I understand your points. I would just like to see those same microphotographs, but with an edge honed and stropped per my methods (straight razor of course).

I would gladly drop my theory, hypothesis, whatever, but at the moment there is no strong evidence to contradict my ideas (if you consider that the current photos are a small sampling and probably don't take into account that there could be other ways to strop an edge more effectively). If my razor edge looked just like the ones in the current photos, I would happily concede that there is somthing else going on.


Scott

Originally Posted by Jimbo

OK - that explains a lot. When I hone I hone North-South. On the "toward me" stroke (right-handed) I start with the tip off the left side of the hone and end with the heel off the right side of the hone - top left to bottom right - which is why I end up with the pattern of the striations I showed before.

I do pretty much the same when I strop, except the edge follows the spine. So, for the same side of the edge as I just mentioned in honing, the stropping stroke is the "away from me" stroke. I start that with the heel just on the right side of the strop and end up with the heel off the right side of the strop at the point where I'd flip the razor - bottom right to top left, if you know what I mean.

Actually, a simpler way to put it is that I use exactly the same X-pattern on the strop as I do on the hone, except the side of the edge that is touching the media (stone or leather) is opposite. Is that not how others do it? Or perhaps I screwed up the striation pattern visualisation picture in my previous post???

James.

James, the big problem, at least for me, is some really abstract mental visualiztion gymnastics going on here!

If only we could all just show each other, wouldn't it be so much simpler....


Scott

Yes, much simpler. I'll try to figure out a way to show it today and post back.

James.

Well, after thinking about it I decided a video might be the best way to show what I mean when I say that stropping goes the opposite way to the bevel striations created when honing.

Here's my attempt. Hopefully I haven't misinterpreted what is being discussed (I do that a fair bit). Please feel free to laugh heartily if this is way off the mark. Oh and also please note that I employed a voice actor for this video - my voice sounds like an Aussie version of Sean Connery, or so I've been told....

Please note that the video is short but fat - dialup users might want to sit this one out...

Bevel Striations - Proudly sponsored by Crayola!

James.

James,

I am awed at your ingenuity! What a great idea.

And, your demonstration confirms to me that we do indeed strop differently! But it also seems to confirm the diagonal striation pattern from honing that I did mention (at least with crayons. I'd still like to go all the way and look at my actual razor edges with the microphotographs, but how that will be possible I don't know).

Now I'm tempted to duplicate your experiment using my stropping method and see if there is any difference.


Scott

Originally Posted by honedright

James,

I am awed at your ingenuity! What a great idea.

And, your demonstration confirms to me that we do indeed strop differently! But it also seems to confirm the diagonal striation pattern from honing that I did mention (at least with crayons. I'd still like to go all the way and look at my actual razor edges with the microphotographs, but how that will be possible I don't know).

Now I'm tempted to duplicate your experiment using my stropping method and see if there is any difference.


Scott

Yes, there's definitely a diagonal striation pattern imparted by the hone when you do the X pattern - sometimes I can see it with the naked eye, particularly with a low grit hone on a wedge's wide bevel. It gets steeper if you angle the heel forward (like the 45 degrees thing), or if you have a shorter hone, as far as I can tell. I think theoretically the striations will vary between 0 degrees (perpendicular to the edge) and 90 degrees (parallel to the edge).

I'd be really interested to see what the pattern looks like with your stropping technique Scott. For now, I'm off to study your stropping video again!

James.

James, I really need to make another video. In the current one, it's hard to see exactly what is going on, even for me. I'll need to slow down the stroke and shoot from a different angle to make it easier to see.

Scott