Thread: 12 different particle size diamond pastes!

Originally Posted by ChrisL

• I have tested a range of razor grinds from wedge, half hollow and full hollow.
• I have only tested up to approx 1k grit starting with the very aggressive sounding 300 grit equivalent (40 micron) for bevel setting some very dull vintage razors.
• So far, there's a problem which is exhibited with each of the razors I've used when using the coarse bevel setting grits: Burrs like you'd never dream of. Call is massive macro-chipping, etc. It's bad.
  
  • The substrates that caused this issue and were the worst offenders in decending order were: glass, corian, MDF type paddles then balsa. I think the hard surfaces with no give and no significant imbedding friendly properties cause the abrasive to just shred the edges. I'll try to get some pictures on my stereo mic to show what I'm talking about.
  
  

I think (from a purely theorethical point of view) that the surprisingly great ocurrence of burrs is due to the fact that the abrasive particles are totally loose (just like a coticule stone cuts a lot more if you hub it with another stone to loose it's garnets) maybe using the coarser grits in leather would embed the diamonds on the honing surface, resulting in less aggressive cuting.

Waiting for my pastes to arrive from hong kong to try this theory.

I was wondering why the heavier grit would be chipping the blade.

I think since the MDF reacts too readily to any kind of liquid by curling up or swelling, so I think it'll have to be counted out (at least for my experiments)...

With the glass and corian, I think that the grit is simply sitting on top and not embedding deeply enough to prevent the blade from riding on some of the grit like rollers, and when it gets to a point that the amount of grit is not even along the edge, it simply snaps off the part of the edge that is being held up by the grit.....kind of like laying a pencil on the table and setting another on top like a see saw, and pressing down on both ends until it breaks.....with our fragile edges, it wouldn't take much.

For any of the harder woods, I think you might be able to force the grit to embed by using the glass bottle on it like you would a hanging strop. This would do a better job of helping to even up the coat of grit and provide you with a more uniform grit height.....although it might also force the grit in too far to be useful!

It sounds like a good enough idea to me, that I will try it in a couple weeks when I get my pastes from HK....unless someone beats me to it, and saves me the trouble.

My 1901 barbers' manual recommends palm tree wood or elder for applying pastes.

For those following this post, to date, I've found the main challenge in my experiments with this to be finding a complimentary substrate which would allow for embedding of the diamonds; substrates previously mentioned that do not allow for any embedding (e.g. glass) resulted in edge damage to various razors while balsa was too soft for bevel setting.

I grabbed a scrap of 2x2 pine from my scrap pile and cut a length about 10" long. For our international members, a "2x2" is a board used in construction and is most commonly found in lengths of 8 feet in any building supply store for about one U.S. dollar. Much like the weight reference to coffee in our country where a "pound" of coffee has dwindled down to around 12 ounces, a "2x2" is now 1 1/2" x 1 1/2 inches in actual dimension. I lapped one surface using 220 grit open coat sandpaper on top of my Woodcraft granite surface plate.

I selected a $10 "WEDGE" razor square point stamped with the name of a barber supply company from Mpls, MN. This WEDGE (which is really what I would consider a 1/2 hollow) has a blade width of 7/16". It's a narrow razor with a standard blade length. This vintage razor, as purchased had an intermittently and only moderately sharp edge. Some areas did cut a few arm hairs while making contact with my arm. I decided then to go to the 7 micron diamond paste (approx 2k grit) to set the bevel, backhoning all the way of course. This razor was a "problem" razor in the sense that one side was flat, the other side had what I call a significant "horizontal cave curvature" (when flat on the wood, the heel and the toe very obviously did not make contact. The 1 1/2" wide "hone" was perfect for this). There was fairly extensive toe wear or "tapered toe" as I call it on that problem side as well. I was pleasantly surprised after several hundred passes with little to no pressure that the bevel was set nicely and the few micro-nicks in the edge were gone. I nice straight edge.

I then went to 3.5 micron (approx 4k) and refined that bevel; this time on a piece of 1/2" birch plywood which I also lapped on the surface plate.. Still.....a nice straight edge with no chipping. Approx 75 passes, again with little to no pressure. The surface of the 7 micron pasted 2x2 and the 3.5 mic pasted birch plywood I pasted were BLACK when I was done. Yup, diamonds cut. After 25 passes on a homemade horsehide paddle strop to prep for a good arm hair test, it passed very nicely. It shaved arm hair easily at skin level and took care of many above skin level.

I then went to 1.5 micron This would be approx 9k grit. I did something different here; I took a piece of the 1 1/2" wide x 12" long x 1/4" thick glass and tightly wrapped one sheet of heavily inked newspaper over it, taping it down firmly. I rubbed the honing oil thinned 1.5 micron diamond paste directly onto the newspaper soaking the newspaper with the mixture and rubbing it in. I don't recall the number of passes but I would estimate around 75 again. Quick strop on paddle strop. Very nice edge. Beautiful under magnification at 40x. Also, no errant large scratches/gouges putting my mind at ease that this paste is of uniform quality without damaging larger unwanted diamond. The edge was so nice in shaving arm hairs above skin level, that I decided to do the following:

I did not proceed to 1 mic and .5 mic diamond followed by chrome ox, cerium oxide, etc. Instead, I took another piece of glass, the same size as above and wrapped one layer of heavily inked newspaper and taped down tightly. I wanted to just "knock down" the diamond edge with plain newspaper. I've always loved newspaper for polishing edges and just can't say enough about it. I did 100 passes on the plain newspaper, then 75 passes on the horsehide paddle strop. Then I could not wait for a test shave. I lathered up at about 11:30 pm last night.

Really, one of the most comfortable and smoothest shaves I've had in a long time. The edge was NOT harsh and to me had surprisingly (or not) similarities to an edge I'd hone off of a coticule or thuringian. Sharp, whisker catcher with virtually no resistance and only minor expected resistance on my chin area. The sharpness and comfort was the same from the first pass to the last. Actually the smoothest I've shaved my chin area in recent memory. I asked my wife to feel my face after I was done. She knows nothing about BBS terminology and she remarked "wow, it feels like our son's ass." (he's 4 months).

The research continues. Since this was of course, only one razor. Even so, one razor that was backhoned 100% from start to finish.

A note or two: At all three grits, the 7 mic, 3.5 mic and 1.5 mic, I did notice a wire edge was produced during the sessions on each grit level. Those that have been honing awhile know that it really is easy as pie to spot a wire edge when viewing a clean edge under a bright incandecent light. I don't need magnification to do that. It's the smallest band of white light seen at the very edge of the edge when you have one. No big deal. When I'd see the wire/burr I would reduce passes to no more than five, then I'd check the edge without, then with magnification. Every time on each grit, after spotting one and checking frequently, I would hone just until the burr was completely gone. Not a big deal. The enjoyable, comfortable and irritation free shave is testament to that.

Chris L

Impressive results, Chris! I don't understand the quote underneath. As I read it it means you continue honing on the same grit size when you see a wire edge. Doesn't it get worse that way?

Originally Posted by ChrisL

When I'd see the wire/burr I would reduce passes to no more than five, then I'd check the edge without, then with magnification. Every time on each grit, after spotting one and checking frequently, I would hone just until the burr was completely gone.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Kees

Impressive results, Chris! I don't understand the quote underneath. As I read it it means you continue honing on the same grit size when you see a wire edge. Doesn't it get worse that way?

Randy asked the same thing and assumed at the point of a wire edge that I would drop down to the lower grit. I did not. Additional passes with frequent inspections revealed that those passes on the same grit level were sufficient to dissolve the burr evenly as it were.

Chris L

The H. Birks wedge I´ve bought from ebay has arrived. It´s the ideal candidate for honing with those diamond pastes (I´ve bought them too). Just waiting for them to arrive to start sharpening!

I´ll post my impressions here too!

I´ve already made 5 glass bench hones. In one of them I´ve glued leather, to use as a leather hone charged with cromox, and the other 4 I´m still figuring out what to use (maybe newspaper, perhaps some surgical tape like micropore).

Originally Posted by ChrisL

For those following this post, to date, I've found the main challenge in my experiments with this to be finding a complimentary substrate which would allow for embedding of the diamonds; substrates previously mentioned that do not allow for any embedding (e.g. glass) resulted in edge damage to various razors while balsa was too soft for bevel setting.

I grabbed a scrap of 2x2 pine from my scrap pile and cut a length about 10" long. For our international members, a "2x2" is a board used in construction and is most commonly found in lengths of 8 feet in any building supply store for about one U.S. dollar. Much like the weight reference to coffee in our country where a "pound" of coffee has dwindled down to around 12 ounces, a "2x2" is now 1 1/2" x 1 1/2 inches in actual dimension. I lapped one surface using 220 grit open coat sandpaper on top of my Woodcraft granite surface plate.

I selected a $10 "WEDGE" razor square point stamped with the name of a barber supply company from Mpls, MN. This WEDGE (which is really what I would consider a 1/2 hollow) has a blade width of 7/16". It's a narrow razor with a standard blade length. This vintage razor, as purchased had an intermittently and only moderately sharp edge. Some areas did cut a few arm hairs while making contact with my arm. I decided then to go to the 7 micron diamond paste (approx 2k grit) to set the bevel, backhoning all the way of course. This razor was a "problem" razor in the sense that one side was flat, the other side had what I call a significant "horizontal cave curvature" (when flat on the wood, the heel and the toe very obviously did not make contact. The 1 1/2" wide "hone" was perfect for this). There was fairly extensive toe wear or "tapered toe" as I call it on that problem side as well. I was pleasantly surprised after several hundred passes with little to no pressure that the bevel was set nicely and the few micro-nicks in the edge were gone. I nice straight edge.

I then went to 3.5 micron (approx 4k) and refined that bevel; this time on a piece of 1/2" birch plywood which I also lapped on the surface plate.. Still.....a nice straight edge with no chipping. Approx 75 passes, again with little to no pressure. The surface of the 7 micron pasted 2x2 and the 3.5 mic pasted birch plywood I pasted were BLACK when I was done. Yup, diamonds cut. After 25 passes on a homemade horsehide paddle strop to prep for a good arm hair test, it passed very nicely. It shaved arm hair easily at skin level and took care of many above skin level.

I then went to 1.5 micron This would be approx 9k grit. I did something different here; I took a piece of the 1 1/2" wide x 12" long x 1/4" thick glass and tightly wrapped one sheet of heavily inked newspaper over it, taping it down firmly. I rubbed the honing oil thinned 1.5 micron diamond paste directly onto the newspaper soaking the newspaper with the mixture and rubbing it in. I don't recall the number of passes but I would estimate around 75 again. Quick strop on paddle strop. Very nice edge. Beautiful under magnification at 40x. Also, no errant large scratches/gouges putting my mind at ease that this paste is of uniform quality without damaging larger unwanted diamond. The edge was so nice in shaving arm hairs above skin level, that I decided to do the following:

I did not proceed to 1 mic and .5 mic diamond followed by chrome ox, cerium oxide, etc. Instead, I took another piece of glass, the same size as above and wrapped one layer of heavily inked newspaper and taped down tightly. I wanted to just "knock down" the diamond edge with plain newspaper. I've always loved newspaper for polishing edges and just can't say enough about it. I did 100 passes on the plain newspaper, then 75 passes on the horsehide paddle strop. Then I could not wait for a test shave. I lathered up at about 11:30 pm last night.

Really, one of the most comfortable and smoothest shaves I've had in a long time. The edge was NOT harsh and to me had surprisingly (or not) similarities to an edge I'd hone off of a coticule or thuringian. Sharp, whisker catcher with virtually no resistance and only minor expected resistance on my chin area. The sharpness and comfort was the same from the first pass to the last. Actually the smoothest I've shaved my chin area in recent memory. I asked my wife to feel my face after I was done. She knows nothing about BBS terminology and she remarked "wow, it feels like our son's ass." (he's 4 months).

The research continues. Since this was of course, only one razor. Even so, one razor that was backhoned 100% from start to finish.

A note or two: At all three grits, the 7 mic, 3.5 mic and 1.5 mic, I did notice a wire edge was produced during the sessions on each grit level. Those that have been honing awhile know that it really is easy as pie to spot a wire edge when viewing a clean edge under a bright incandecent light. I don't need magnification to do that. It's the smallest band of white light seen at the very edge of the edge when you have one. No big deal. When I'd see the wire/burr I would reduce passes to no more than five, then I'd check the edge without, then with magnification. Every time on each grit, after spotting one and checking frequently, I would hone just until the burr was completely gone. Not a big deal. The enjoyable, comfortable and irritation free shave is testament to that.

Chris L

Originally Posted by cegadede

The H. Birks wedge I´ve bought from ebay has arrived. It´s the ideal candidate for honing with those diamond pastes (I´ve bought them too). Just waiting for them to arrive to start sharpening!

I´ll post my impressions here too!

I´ve already made 5 glass bench hones. In one of them I´ve glued leather, to use as a leather hone charged with cromox, and the other 4 I´m still figuring out what to use (maybe newspaper, perhaps some surgical tape like micropore).

Cool. So we have multiple test results, if that wedge is in serious need of bevel setting/very dull, try some thinned out 28 mic or 20 mic first straight on glass (backhoning) and see if the edge seems to be too thrashed after the bevel is set. "Macro-chipping" which I would define as not able to be seen clearly with the unaided eye, but would be seen as extremely serrated large peaks and valleys on the edge under 40x magnification. I'm not talking about an edge at that grit range having an even "tooth" to it. I'm kicking myself for not taking pictures when I started on some very dull razors using the 40 micron (300 grit range) on glass, but I don't even want to go back there.

I worked on a Tonsorial Gem full hollow square point tonight that had a rough edge. There were some chips that needed to be honed out and a few small dings or wavy spots under magnification. So far, I would not say that backhoning from start to finish would a good way to go if a razor has chips which must be honed out. I believe it could be done, but I think the amount of time it would take would be much much much longer than edge leading. After starting to backhone using 20 micron diamond paste (approx 1k grit range) on the substrate I've found most effective to date for this method, a lapped 2x2 pine board section, I did revert to honing out the chips/waves and setting the bevel using my customized half width Shapton 1k glass stone. Once done on the glass stone, I did 25 passes on the 20 mic 2x2 reverting back to backhoning. The edge looked better under 40x mag and was impressively sharper after those 25 passes than the sharp (arm hair shaving along the length) edge off the 1k stone edge leading.

I'll continue honing the Tonsorial Gem through the backhoning diamond paste progression this week and see how that comes out at test shave and report back.

Chris L

So, have you gotten a good look at the edge you honed this way, Chris? I'm wondering if its more rounded then usual. And if it is, I'm wondering if it'll end up making any difference in the long run.

This is a pretty cool experiment.

Originally Posted by Pete_S

So, have you gotten a good look at the edge you honed this way, Chris? I'm wondering if its more rounded then usual. And if it is, I'm wondering if it'll end up making any difference in the long run.

This is a pretty cool experiment.

I have a decent stereo microscope which I use almost exclusively on 40x magnification. Occasionally I will tilt a razor to view the actual edge, as best I can head on, but virtually all of the time when honing, I'm inspecting the edge from a side view. I'm looking at the bevels.

I'm interested in why you think the edges honing this way would be more rounded then honing edge leading?

Chris L