Thread: Honing Pastes! Help with choosing please!

Originally Posted by Darkwolf

I ordered a 4-sided paddle strop from Tony (and a hanging strop), and I would like to set it up properly to be a flexible and complete honing strop (I know that it can't substitute for a true hone in extreme cases). I am trying to follow the advice Randy gave me, and I would like to set this up with 6 micron, 1 micron, .5 micron and .25 micron on the different planes.

I think you have too big a jump in there. Your grit equivalents are: 3K, 14K, 50K and 100K. The .25 gives you an extreme level of sharpness, but you haven't really put together a good set. I would delete it and go 6, 3, 1, and .5. The 3 gives you the 8K grit that you would have with a Norton. And the 1 gets up to the level of a fine finishing hone.

I don't think you'll miss the .25 that much. If you want to try it some day, youcan get a two sided paddle with finished leather on one side and put it on the other. Then you'l be able to go the entire range smoothly with only two paddles.

Nenad,
It does make me wonder about some of the really rounded razors I have gotten from eBay. Many old time barbers used only hanging strops with pastes and they tended to be coarse pastes too. Most of the Dovo tube style and cake stryle pastes are fairly coarse comparred to diamond pastes.
I am sure a 2 or 3 micron paste and a hanging strop could quickly ruin an edge.
Of course with the volume of shavves they did it may have been the most time effective way to quickly sharpen an edge and you must admit there is a certain amount of showmanship to a skilled barber speedily whipping a razor up and down a strop.
Just to clear things up. Ebven though I am "the strop guy" I don't think a strop can replace a hone. Each is a tool for a certain job and eventually most of us will want both to use for the jobs each does best. One compliments the other.
Tony

Originally Posted by superfly

Jim, the truth about pastes is that you DON'T actually need to use them. Their use originated from the old days of barbershops, when the barbers needed to refresh the edges after doing a LOT of shavings with their razors. I have read in some barber's manual that one should not use pasted strop before 10 years of plain strop experience, and it's not recomended using them at all...

I don't know where you got this information about pastes, but it's not true. The baber's manual we have here says nothing of the sort. There are quite a few people here who have not been able to use a hone properly but have been very successful with pasted strops. I use both, and I find the strops easier. Also, there's less chance of overhoning. What I like best about the strops is that I can use them anywhere- i my office or in front of a TV. I can only use the stones in the bathroom where they always leave a mess.

One thing you didn't mention is babers hones. That's actually what babers used to ue in this country (I saw it), and that's whay our baber's manuals recommend.

If you want to bring your edge a step further, you might consider getting 12-15K Chinese or Japanese wetstone. It will last you a lifetime, and will do the same if not better job than pasted strop. I am considering getting one myself, but for now, I am shaving very comfortably coming off the Norton 8K and DOVO plain strop.

No stone can come close to a pasted strop. The exalted Shapton is only 15K. Tehy also make a 30K whic you can own for only $700. Even a .5 micron paste is like 50K and will improve your edge after you finish with the Shapton. The 1 micron paste will get you to the level of that Japanese waterstone.

Originally Posted by superfly

Here's my view on pastes. Using pasted strop creates beweled edge, as opposite to honing with finer stones (up to 15K+), wich keeps the edge wedge shaped. When you later hone this beweled edge, you will find it dificult to achieve desired results, needing more time on the hone, because you will have to remove more material to restore the edge. Depending on how long have you used pasted strop, this time is becoming guesswork. On the other side, when you hone nonpasted dull edge, you can usualy predict the strokes needed to restore the edge, as Lynn recomends, with two 1/3 passes on the Norton you can ussualy keen razor that is starting to pull. Using pasted strop also changes edge-spine angle, because pastes can "eat" faster thin edge than the bigger-surfaced spine, again needing more time on the hone to correct.

I don't know where you get your information, especially since you haven't used anything beyond the Norton yourself.

What you say about the pasted paddle strops is not true if you use them correctly. I look at my razor edges under 100x magnification and I haven't seen any of the rounding you describe. I suppose you could get it if you really bear down on the strop, but then who knows what you would get if you really bear down on a stone. Besides if he used only strops and did get that, so what? I have seen discussions in knife sharpening articles where they try to get that kind of edge because it's stronger and holds up better.

Now if you used hanging strops for paste and didn't use them right, you might get the edge you describe. But we're talking about paddles, which are firm.

If you follow the various posts you'll see that Lynn uses pastes to finish his razors.

If you had a rounded edge and needed to straighten it on a hone, you wouldn't have to guess at anything. You can see when it happens. On a 4K stone the edge forms up very quickly even on an Ebay razor. From your discussion it sounds like you've never done this.

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Nenad,
It does make me wonder about some of the really rounded razors I have gotten from eBay. Many old time barbers used only hanging strops with pastes and they tended to be coarse pastes too. Most of the Dovo tube style and cake stryle pastes are fairly coarse comparred to diamond pastes.
I am sure a 2 or 3 micron paste and a hanging strop could quickly ruin an edge.
Of course with the volume of shavves they did it may have been the most time effective way to quickly sharpen an edge and you must admit there is a certain amount of showmanship to a skilled barber speedily whipping a razor up and down a strop.
Just to clear things up. Ebven though I am "the strop guy" I don't think a strop can replace a hone. Each is a tool for a certain job and eventually most of us will want both to use for the jobs each does best. One compliments the other.
Tony

I used to go to an old time barber and he used only barber hones like they show in the baber's manual. This guy was a real pro and he didn't need to make a show of anything. Once in a while he'd test an edge and do a few swipes over on the side on a small hone he had in his pocket, hit the strop and go to work. I never saw a pasted strop in that shop. Once in a while I would see him spend more time on a razor when he wasn't busy, but it was always quick. I talked to him about it (out of curiosity) and he told me he sent a set of razors out to a service every month. I can't imagine how many shaves he got on a razor before he sent it out to be honed. This guy was shaving constantly.

Tony,

Maybe you could develop the "strone", half strop and half stone!

Randy

My two cents,

The 0.25 is a luxury
The 0.5 I use on all razors and its chrome oxide from hand american. I purchased one pound of the stuff (dry) and apply it dry to the paddle strop which was made from a finishing strop. I use the smooth side. It works very well. I decided on the chrome oxide because I had other uses in mind for the stuff. Diamond does cut faster but whats so important about 1 minute? and I save money.

I would agree with the need for a paste to fit between the 8000 stone and the 0.5 paste. I would try for a 1.0 micron if available. However it is not a necessity! The only logical reason for ordering the one micron now is to save on shipping costs in the future. It does not matter what the material is. They will all get the job done. Its just that some work fastrer than others.
1. Diamond
2. Boron carbide
3. Chrome oxide
4. The old pastes are made from? and what level of quality control is used when they size the abrasive particles?
I will eventually try the old pastes. heck, I have tried rottenstone( it works) and grapite( it works) so I may as well try the others. But the new stuff is more controlled in terms of grain size.

Have a good night all,

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I don't know where you get your information, especially since you haven't used anything beyond the Norton yourself.

“Das Rasiermesser” (The razor) has been written in 1939 and was published by Der Messerschmied Verlag. It goes into detail about production techniques, geometry, and it also addresses the increasing competition with safety razors and electric shavers."

you can find it in nassrazur.com, or here in some of the .pdf's. I think it's in the razor central manual.

Quote:
"The pasted strop is just a commercial object, and cannot be advised to the user or expert. The edge is so fine, it needs only honing once a year, the rest can be done by stropping to polish the edge. Cutting pastes create new edges every time you strop. Coarse pastes cause a rough edge, which does not shave well. Painless shaving is impossible when the edge is not sharp. Only barbers who damage
the edge by shaving many persons a day, need a good cutting paste or a hone to refresh the edge every day. But even then, the cutting pastes are originally meant for French knives, not for hollow ones. Hollow ones form burrs with cutting paste easily. Many barbers stuck to the natural strop without cutting paste. Cutting paste needs special skills and errors are occurring frequently. Also, during shaving the back should be very close to the cheek i.e. with a very small angle, to conserve the edge.
Frequently, customers only start to complain after the razor has been sent in for sharpening. The
reason is, that before they shaved with a dull razor, increasing the shaving angle and the pressure, their pain nerves adapting to the pain. After sharpening, they damaged the edge by using the increased
pressure and angle they got used to, or worse, by using cutting paste. A burr forms faster the sharper the blade.
Many barbers have tried out several tricks with one purpose: to avoid honing. With the so called cutting pastes they believed to have found a suitable method. However, more than ever barbers complain about bad cutting razors, causing them to try out many amateuristic experiments, such as glassplates, ashes, soap, oils, pastes etc, without any succes. Even after having used a pasted strop, the unpasted strop is necessary to complete the stropping process. Every barber who wants to use the pasted strop, should have experience with honing first, for 10-15 years."

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

Now if you used hanging strops for paste and didn't use them right, you might get the edge you describe. But we're talking about paddles, which are firm.

True. Partially. If U use pressure, you get the edge as well.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

If you had a rounded edge and needed to straighten it on a hone, you wouldn't have to guess at anything. You can see when it happens. On a 4K stone the edge forms up very quickly even on an Ebay razor. From your discussion it sounds like you've never done this.

I shave with this:

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

One thing you didn't mention is babers hones. That's actually what babers used to ue in this country (I saw it), and that's whay our baber's manuals recommend.

True. I forgot to mention them, and I think they do what they supposed to, and are a great tool also.


have fun...

Nenad

My personal opinon only BUT I feel the validity of that manual is summed up in the first part. ""The edge is so fine, it needs only honing once a year, the rest can be done by stropping to polish the edge.""

So we are to believe that a comercially used razor only needs honing once a year and the strop alone will keep it going all year??? I doubt any of us could go a year this way using out razors just once a day. This is looking like a Danial Rouah manual now <g>.

I will stand by the hard paddle and light pressure not damaging the edge to any measuarble extent and the hanging pasted strop being very likely to reshape the edge and creating a secondary bevel.

Each book or manual is an individual opinon and each must be taken with a grain of salt. the info is worth noting in any of them but actual practice and the results we get are what works in the real world. Yes, the pasted strop may just be a comercial item as is the very manual that denigrades it. Both were meant to sell based on their creators opinons. Some work, some don't.

Tony

you can find it in nassrazur.com, or here in some of the .pdf's. I think it's in the razor central manual.

You said it yourelf. It's 1939. I don't know how they did it back then. But today Stropping with hard pasted strops is widely accepted in all sharpening circles. Just go online and check. It's considered the next step after hones. I'm afraid you're going against the wheels of progress.

True. Partially. If U use pressure, you get the edge as well.

I don't know if you could use enough pressure to do that with a solid paddle strop (Tony Miller can correct me). What you would get, if you could, is the same thing as a stone. The edge would bend and rise up above the surface of the strop. Besides, there's no reason to use that kind of pressure. That's why you use different pastes.

I shave with this:

Oh my! I hope you're not serious! I don't need a microscope to see that edge needs a lot of work. I would hone if the edge looked like that at 60x. With your naked eye, the edge should look perfectly smooth and straight. Just look at the razors in the gallery. Even old ones have a sharp edge. I envy your tough skin.