Thread: The Grand Experiment- Phase 2

Well, based on how this thing went before and how its going now I think its a forgone conclusion that 60 passes is better than 30 so I don't see how doing less will demonstrate anything. Once this phase ends we'll see if the before and after honing beats just before. The last time it appeared to be a dead heat but we'll see what transpires in the next month or so.

It seems to me the next question to be answered is, if more honing is better is there a point at which you get no more benefit and if so what is it? Lets all chew on that for awhile.

Actually, I'd like to see another member repeat the experiment to see how another user might change the results.

As for the total number of strop passes, it seems to me that since razors are a little gruff fresh off the hone, and operating a little too smooth or wiry later on, it seems like a totally different experiment is in order, perhaps like the one you describe, to determine whether or not it's better to strop the razor more in the weeks after honing and less after a few weeks have past in order to optimise the comfort of the razor.

X

Well another week has come and gone and with this mornings shave with SRP 38 I have removed it from this rotation.

There is much to discuss in this update. In phase 1 SRP 39 got the 30x passes and SRP 38 got 30 before and 30 after and after about 10 shaves I removed SRP 39 because the comfort factor had deteriorated. Mind you it still shaved very well but the deterioration was there and shaving was really getting to be a pain. In this phase SRP 38 lasted about 12 shaves and frankly was in better overall shape that SRP 39 in phase one but for differing reasons.

In this phase I pulled SRP 38 but not because it was uncomfortable because it was still giving quite comfortable shaves, not quite as good as the other two razors but still quite comfortable. The reason I pulled it was because it was getting dull. It was taking too many passes to get those problem areas and still was leaving much to be desired compared to SRP 39 and the other TI.

So honemeisters here's the kicker, why this time around did the sharpness fail whereas the last time around the comfort failed?

So here is the $64,000 question and probable answer and some deep stuff to put in our pipes to smoke. Last time around prep was done using the Norton 8K and finishing on the 12K Kitayama. This time prep was done on the yellow coticule. So, do you guys think that it is possible that the resultant edge produced by the coticule favors comfort over sharpness while the edge produced by the norton favors sharpness over comfort. And somewhere in that equation figures longevity of the edge too.

Now I'm not saying the coticule edge isn't sharp it certainly is but is it possible the edge geometry is such that its almost the effect of slightly rounding off the edge to give that degree of comfort the norton edge doesn't have for the first few shaves after honing. Many here have said that after honing with the Norton the comfort increases after a few shaves. I've found that to be the case also.

Now this issue was not something that was ever to be explored in this experiment but here it is anyway. So something I would like to introduce as a concept is what I like to call the three tiers of an edge. To me there are three factors or qualities an edge should have, 1-degree of sharpness, 2-degree of comfort, and 3-longevity of edge before honing is required. Is it possible that some of these factors work against each other? Anotherwords maybe an edge with 100% sharpness can never have more than x% comfort and an edge with 100% comfort can never have more than x% sharpness and somewhere in there the longevity of the edge also factors in. You can figure out what x stands for because I don't know but you can bet its important to know.

What we are all striving for in our honing and stroping is to strike that point where either each factor is at its best with out affecting the other two OR we personally are more concerned with one factor over the other two and are willing to accept compromises to get that final degree of whichever factor is more important to each of us?

Is it not also possible that the reason we all talk about our different methods of edge maintainance ie honing stroping etc because each material ie leather, ceramic, natural stone, paste, etc emphasizes a different one of the three factors?

The experiment will continue using SRP 39 being stroped 60x and the third TI being stroped 30x before and 30x after shaving. We will see if this pattern continues with these other two razors.

Very interesting experiment. I only have a suggestion to take out one source of systematic error. Use one and only one razor, and do the different experiments sequentially. Also, prepare the blade by honing exactly the same each time. When you are finished with, say two weeks of doing the "30 passes before" experiment, then switch to the scheme of doing "30 before and 30 after", etc. In my very limited opinion, the hardness of the steel may not be that easy to control during manufacture. Especially if the guys making the TIs are really dipping them by hand into molten lead and quenching them in oil (I read that somewhere, maybe the classicshaving.com website). I suspect the variability of that process may produce blades of slightly differing hardness that could affect the results of your study.

E

I always try to get sharp first with the Norton 4k/8K and then go to the Coticule for the finish. This is interesting. Thanks. Lynn

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

So, do you guys think that it is possible that the resultant edge produced by the coticule favors comfort over sharpness while the edge produced by the norton favors sharpness over comfort. And somewhere in that equation figures longevity of the edge too.

I wouldn't be surprised.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

...l the three tiers of an edge. To me there are three factors or qualities an edge should have, 1-degree of sharpness, 2-degree of comfort, and 3-longevity of edge before honing is required. Is it possible that some of these factors work against each other? Anotherwords maybe an edge with 100% sharpness can never have more than x% comfort and an edge with 100% comfort can never have more than x% sharpness and somewhere in there the longevity of the edge also factors in. You can figure out what x stands for because I don't know but you can bet its important to know.

X stands for Freedom, Equality, Justice, Democracy and Human Dignity among other things!
(couldn't resist)

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

What we are all striving for in our honing and stroping is to strike that point where either each factor is at its best with out affecting the other two OR we personally are more concerned with one factor over the other two and are willing to accept compromises to get that final degree of whichever factor is more important to each of us?

I think you're right on with this. We should add that not only is each man different with different beards and different tolerances, but blades differ too.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

Is it not also possible that the reason we all talk about our different methods of edge maintainance ie honing stroping etc because each material ie leather, ceramic, natural stone, paste, etc emphasizes a different one of the three factors?

Now we're hip deep in personal preference if I'm not mistaken.

You bring up some great points in all of this and I'm strongly inclined to give you the nod on all of it.

As for the experiment, we (you) should have used the exact same sharpeners as last time, but who knew we'd learn so much about ourselves.

*group hug*

X

I'm doing my best to sit this one out. I'm really trying, honest. Let me just ask a few questions and then I'm outta here. What characteristic is it that makes guys say one hone is "fast" and one is "slow". It seems like a dumb thought to me, but lots of guys believe in it. If, and I say if, its true that two hones of the same grit have varied speeds, could that be caused by the "rise and run" of the hone, say grit level that is higher than the floor of the hone comparatively?

What if, and I'm just suggesting, what if the hone that is considered faster is putting deeper striations into the blade? What if that same blade, with its deeper striations will cut better but not be smoother, or cut for a longer period? And inversely for the lighter striated blade, it'll be smoother but not continue cutting as long?


Ok, I'm crawling back into my hole . . .

Some higher grits cut fast too. I think the 8k Norton cuts very fast and I have to be careful not to let it oversmooth the edge. My barber hone which I'm only starting to play with don't cut quite as fast regardless of grit.

X

Originally Posted by xman

Some higher grits cut fast too. I think the 8k Norton cuts very fast and I have to be careful not to let it oversmooth the edge. My barber hone which I'm only starting to play with don't cut quite as fast regardless of grit.

X

Your darn tootin about that. The blue belgian though supposedly in the 6K range I find cuts verrrry slow compared to the Norton 4K. The yellow coticule which is in the 10K-12K range is way slower than the Norton 8K or for that matter my 12K Kitayama.

At any rate once again its time for the weekly update. I wish I could say the two TIs were still neck and neck but it isn't true. I'm finding that the SRP is starting to pull away from the third TI. Nothing drastic but the earliest signs are there. For awhile I really thought that the reason the Third TI seemed to win the last time around was because it might have been a better razor but it looks like that isn't the case afterall.

Before I jump to any conclusions though we'll let this thing continue and see how it shakes out. I think another week will point to who the winner if any will be. And yes the pattern is similar to what happened with the first SRP its the closeness of the shave thats deteriorating not the comfort factor. Yea maybe I should have used the same sharpening method this time around like the last but this is turning out to be way more interesting!

Maybe after this is all over I'll be able to come up with some high falutin law of shaving that will make me famous in the anals of shaving (pun intended LOL).

How about "You can't overstrop a razor".