Thread: Pasted Strops a rough guide

Originally Posted by S0LITARYS0LDIER

What would a paste edge feel like in comparison to a edge honed on stones?.

Well that is a bit subjective ill try to give you the best idea as I see it. Paste are a bit like natural stones as the different mediums you use for them can effect how they feel when put to your face. Also like stones the last paste will determine the feel of the edge.

Now for me I only have a couple of finishing stones ( cnat, surgical black ark, trans ark, slate, and norton 8k.) I have also had a 12 k naniwa edge from Lynn.

For me the black ark and trans ark leave a smooth butter edge. This is similar to what I get from dovo black a very sharp edge that is really smooth.

The norton 8k I would say is similar to dovo red both are sharp and shave good but give the impression that there not quite finished yet.

Now .5 and .25 diamond leave a a scray sharp but also harsh edge to me. Really haven't had a stone like this but would guess from other guess descriptions that its similar to the high grit glass sharptons.

Chrome Oxide leaves a sharp edge that is nice but lacking that butter feel while on leather. This was most similar to the naniwa edge. However put it on balsa and it can edge into a very harsh edge.

Ferris oxide is similar to Chrome Oxide though smoother on both leather and balsa.

CBN I haven't use so can't really say.

Yea, it depends on the paste, the substrate and the edge. Generally a pasted edge is smoother to me, because the grit is finer, the resulting stria shallower and the edge straighter, but YMMV for example a razor stropped on .50 Diamond, Chrome Oxide and CBN will each feel very different, even though all the grit sizes are the same.

For years we have used Chrome Oxide as a finishing paste with great result, but that is just about 30-60K grit equivalents (depending on which conversion chart you read) and usually off an 8-10ish stone, which can be a large jump.

But there are other pastes of much higher grits that can leave an even finer finish, up to 160K /.010um, CBN. Granted it works best with a progression of at least .50um CBN, but would probably work after Chrome Oxide with proper stropping.

The problem with the ultra-high, sub-micron grits is they can get harsh, I suspect the edge may be too sharp and is exfoliating skin. I like the .25um/ 60k CBN best for comfort and touch up.

CBN is unique in paste, it is second to diamond in hardness, almost as quick in cutting, but not as harsh, especially when used with a soft substrate and on a hanging strop. Fabric/paper and soft leathers (Kangaroo) seem to work best and used wet, misted with distilled water, even better.

And really that is cause of the bad rap paste have received, I believe. There are a lot of variables that affect results.

One of the beauties of paste is, if you don’t like the edge, a few laps on the finisher and you are back to where you started, or drop down to a more aggressive paste, not like you have to bevel set the razor again.

Sooooo..... at the end... i understand that for some pastes the hangig strops are ok but the palette strops are better for some others.. so i imagine that the lower grits and most agressive pastes would be netter in a palette cause you could damage the edge... and if you are just polishing, then hanging strops are ok....

Im making a double cotton 3" webbing hanging strop... so i can load the 2 sides of each with one of my 4 higher grits.... the pastes i have are:

Dovo red
Dovo black
Dovo white
CrOx 0.5 micron
CrOx 0.3 micron (in the mail)
FeOx 0.1 micron (in the mail)

So i was thinkig on having tbe dovo white, the CrOx .5 and .3 and the FeOx .1 on tbe strop..

And then the dovo black and red in balsa... what do you guys think?

Oh and by the way... around what grit should I consider the dovo white? If its less agressive tban the FeOx then should I use it after that? Or when shall I use it?

Btw... im honning all tge way to naniwa SS 12k... but want to see where shoul i start with the pastes and what improvement can be achieved

Thanks!!

So, first if you want to experiment and see if you like a paste, paste a piece of unfinished cardboard, (Inside of a cereal box).

A lot depends on what you are trying to achieve. Paste can add keenness, refresh or calm an edge.

A 12k super stone edge and leather, is a nice shaving edge for most, good Chrome Oxide will make it smoother, Ferrous or Cerium Oxide more so.

I don’t know what is in Dove paste, and have read various comments about the ingredients and grit ratings, none of which are close to razor quality Chrome Oxide, which is about .50um - 30K.

From a 12k edge, you would be going backwards in grit size depending on which chart you believe.

I have experimented with Dove paste and could get much better edges with Chrome, Ferrous, Cerium Oxide and CBN which is better than all of them.

I don’t know what is in Dove and TI white paste or the grit rating. It is aggressive and will polish a bevel, but can be harsh.

Thanks Euclid!! What about the part of hanging vs paddle? Which one do you use with the CrOx?

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Hanging, on Polyester Canvas, Sailcloth.

The harder the substrate, the more aggressive the cut. With Chrome Oxide, I use it to polish, smooth an edge, so a hanging strop is softer than a paddle.

I only use paddles for knives and tools.

With CBN, I use a paper strop.

I think the main reason some tend to shun the pasted (leather, balsa [insert favourite substrate here]) strop is that t it can only be used with the spine leading.

So, what is the problem with that? Well, it's a fairly well known issue in the various industries that sharpening steel edges by abrading against the edge results in a smaller wire edge than when abrading with (or away if you will) from the edge. Shallow angle edges such as the ones we use with straight razors are unique to straights, the steel simply does not have the strength at those angles to perform as a cutting edge in common uses. For razors, we adapt by using leather strops, linen strops and the like to attempt to keep the edge straight and not folded over between shaves.

One could use a hard substrate for the paste and hone against the edge, and this is exactly what we do when we use a slurry on a hone. When lapping on a hard surface, the fine grit becomes difficult to deal with, unlike the slurry on a hone. Trying to mix up and hone with Chromium Oxide suspended in water on a piece of glass would be pretty challenging. Hones are not quite as smooth, the slurry is often the same material as the hone and so any failure of the slurry will be made up for by the substrate, which is also an abrasive.

At this point I hear the Jnat owners objecting as they use Nagura stones to create various grits of slurry and they indeed hone against the edge so in a technical sense they are "pasting" their hone with abrasives and honing with them against the edge, and by all accounts, this works great. (And this is really lapping as they are using a loose grit on a hard surface).

I personally use a hard knit wool surface on a hard substrate pasted with Chromium Oxide powder and do maybe 5 or 6 round trips, spine first, to remove any faint wire edges that may have occurred on my hones and I seem to have great results. In the past, I used a pasted strop for polishing and refreshing my razors (same Chromium Oxide) and at the time I was pleased with the results, but today I no longer find that edge suitable for me, and I tend to do everything on my finishing hones and just that light 5 or 6 passes on the wool strop at the end finishes it for me.

I have no scientific proof, but from all my experience in the gunshop, machine shop etc., even a paddle strop with leather will have a very slight give and tend to convex the edge slightly. The main problem for me is that extended honing in that direction will also tend to create wire/false edges that can become a problem which is why I personally avoid it now.

In the end, there is no absolute right or wrong, run whatcha brung, and if it works for you, great... but never be afraid to try another idea.... for you it might just work, and as it is your shave and not mine... that's all that matters. But we need to keep universally accepted knowledge in mind. We know that honing against an edge results in a reduced wire edge, we know that honing away from an edge results in more pronounced wire edges.

Please note, all types of honing will result in wire edges if you take it that far... attempting to sneak up on that very moment, when honing a straight razor, without going too far, and creating a wire edge, is what it is all about. We all have our pet ways of doing that job, and with experience, an open mind, not to mention time, we eventually get better at it.

Regards

Christian

Wire edge, perhaps with lower grits and not alternating sides. But not at sub-micron grits.

Convexing a bevel is a good thing, not a problem. Honing edge leading, on film, over a sheet of paper on a glass substrate, will convex an edge.

The problem most folks have with paste, is making too big a jump and expecting too much from paste, without a progression. An 8-12k jump to 30k is a large jump, especially after a 4k jump from 4-8k progression.

A handful of pasted laps and expecting a magic edge is just not realistic.

That, and it is not just about grit size.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Wire edge, perhaps with lower grits and not alternating sides. But not at sub-micron grits.

Convexing a bevel is a good thing, not a problem. Honing edge leading, on film, over a sheet of paper on a glass substrate, will convex an edge.

The problem most folks have with paste, is making too big a jump and expecting too much from paste, without a progression. An 8-12k jump to 30k is a large jump, especially after a 4k jump from 4-8k progression.

A handful of pasted laps and expecting a magic edge is just not realistic.

That, and it is not just about grit size.

Well, if you jump from a 12kSS... thas 12k Jis.. approx 15k... then, if we follow that rule that you should be safe if jump to a grkt thats the double than last... then .5 CrOx (30k) sould be safe... rigth? Then you can go to .3 CrOx and then .1 FeOx....
Is my theory flawed?

A lot depends on what you are trying to achieve and the substrate. The harder the substrate, the more aggressive the cut.

If you want to calm/smooth an edge, a few laps on Chrome Oxide (.50um/30k), might be enough for a slight edge improvement.

A lot depend on what you are starting with, condition of the bevel, amount of polish and straightness of the edge. Not all 8k’s finish the same, and/or most folks, do not do enough finish laps on the 8k. A Naniwa snow white, Junpaku, will leave a very polished bevel.

Additionally, a .50um Chrome Oxide, .50um Diamond and .50um CBN will each produce very different edges with the same numbers of laps on the same substrate.

You can go from 8k to 30k, .50um Chrome Oxide, but you may need more than a few laps. Often, we see folks make that jump and decry the paste, (it didn’t work) without a thought of what they are asking the paste to do.

A 12k Super Stone is quite the polisher, so results would probably be much better going to Chrome Oxide. There is nothing wrong with doing 50 laps, on Chrome Oxide or using it daily.

What’s the worst that could happen? You might have to do a few more, finishing laps to get back, to where you started from, but I doubt it…

All I am saying is no paste is magic, think about what you are asking it to do, and the condition of your bevel and edge.

Experiment and find a routine, that gives you, results you are after.