Thread: interesting thing dawned on me today....

I recently purchased a coticule/Belgian Blue whetstone combo stone, and after reading all the info about the dilucot and unicot methods, a strange thing occurred to me. Both methods recommend stropping about 60 times on linen and then 60 on leather after honing before shaving. Given the amount of stropping (especially on linen), could the "magic" behind the comfortable edge that coticules produce be caused more by the stropping afterward than the stone itself? I haven't shaved directly off the stone, but it seems like it could be that a comfortable edge comes more from stropping than any particular finisher? Please forgive if this is heresy, it was just a thought that crossed my mind.

That's a good question. But I say whatever works.

In my experience you need to strop any razor after honing before you test the edge. Just try coticule and 60 laps on leather only and compare it to stropping on both leather and linen and see whether it makes a difference.

At the end of the day the only thing that really matters is that you get a comfortable smooth shave. Experiment and see what works best for you.

There are several threads about stropping after honing, it gets real interesting if you go farther back in the achives here on SRP and you will find that some actually found that Honing, then stroping 50/100, then shaving, then stroping on the paste of choice, then stropping 50/100 again brought out a significant change in how smooth the shave became and stayed... The theory back then was that the shave broke down the edge, and got to the true edge, then the paste tweaked it in..

Try that and see what you think

This is a very good question and is so very difficult to quantify. All we have are experienced, anecdotal, qualitative data from users on this, and other, blogs. Of course this is valuable data for sure, but what our hobby really needs is an scanning electron micrograph "SEM" of edges followed by some sort of quantitative cutting resistance that simulates whiskers. There are such tools for knives, but the edge of a straight razor is far to fragile to use them.

With that said, here is my anecdotal response.

I think that the stropping on leather is the single most important refining step to any edge, and that if it is being done right there is benefit up to 100 strokes beyond which I don't find and difference. I typically use 60-80 laps. I have always found it fascinating that most DE razor manufacturers stop at ~900 grit for the final hone on the micro-edge. Of course the angle and pressure are perfect. Out of curiosity I have tried a lightly honed razor right off my 1000 grit followed by CrO balsa then 100 laps of leather. It was an excellent shave virtually indistinguishable from my Naniwa 12k finish. What this means to me is that once the edge has converged perfectly, even at a fairly low grit, the refining stages of CrO and/or leather seem to be contributing the most to the comfort of the shave. Of course this is just a qualitative opinion.

No. As much as I believe in the benefits of stropping, there is no way you can strop a good edge onto a blade if the edge was rubbish off the hone in only 60/60 (or even at all, depending on the edge). So I would say that, regardless of the name you want to put to a honing recipe, the smoothness or lack thereof of the edge can never be solely attributed to the post-honing stropping regime.

James.

You could always just try to shave directly off the stone, omitting the stropping. That would show you exactly what is gained from the stone, and what is from the stropping. I have shaved directly off most of my hones, it is quite interesting and rarely very uncomfortable.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

No. As much as I believe in the benefits of stropping, there is no way you can strop a good edge onto a blade if the edge was rubbish off the hone in only 60/60 (or even at all, depending on the edge). So I would say that, regardless of the name you want to put to a honing recipe, the smoothness or lack thereof of the edge can never be solely attributed to the post-honing stropping regime.

James.

You make a good point. I agree that stropping will not make a bad edge better or shave ready. However, your statement does support the fact that stropping does make a good edge even better. Stropping is doing something at the microscopic level to the edge at this point beyond what is acheived by the stone alone. Otherwise, we would all just shave directly off our stones, which I have also done with some success.

I think that was the point being made. That a nicely honed bevel and edge from just about any coticule or waterstone is definitely improved by the stropping process and that this may be the ultimate determinant of shave ready. Otherwise, why strop at all.

My statement had nothing to do with making a good edge better. That is a given. The OP asked whether these so-called unicot and diluticot recipes edge's comfort is more to do with the stropping than it is to do with the stone. I said no it isn't using what is generically referred to here as the "polished turd" principle as an example. If this is not the case, why hone at all?

James.

Originally Posted by Gammaray

Out of curiosity I have tried a lightly honed razor right off my 1000 grit followed by CrO balsa then 100 laps of leather. It was an excellent shave virtually indistinguishable from my Naniwa 12k finish. What this means to me is that once the edge has converged perfectly, even at a fairly low grit, the refining stages of CrO and/or leather seem to be contributing the most to the comfort of the shave. Of course this is just a qualitative opinion.

Mercy sakes, Gammaray, you seem to be suggesting that I may have wasted upwards of $7000.00 on my hone collection when I could have simply accomplished my goal of achieving a shave ready edge by merely setting a bevel, dragging the edge across a piece of balsa wood, strop it up and "BINGO".

You may well be right about this and I will definitely pick a good razor out of my pile of blades and give it a whirl with my Chosera 1k. At the very least, I will PM you with the results of my 1k odessy. I will try anything once and thanks for the challenge................

JERRY
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