Thread: strop scratches

Originally Posted by HNSB

What type of microscope are you using, how is it lit, and what magnification?

A variety--a 60X stereo scope at work, and a couple of hand-helds in various ranges, none over 60X, with their own lights and other external sources, too. I've been very careful to try all light directions, to highlight any scratching from any direction. The one single thing I'm absolutely sure of is that I'm seeing all there is to see, and every stage in the sharpening process accurately. That's really not the issue. And as I said before, I'm viewing newspaper as a standard, since everyone has access to the same thing, and that's scratching, too.

All of my blades are old ones. Could it possibly be a factor of softer steel? I'm doubting that, but one never knows.

I don't think vintage steel would make any difference. What I can say is that when I first came around there were members who seemed to be saying that removing the previous grits scratch pattern was necessary to achieve a proper edge. I was beginning in honing with a norton 1k, and a 4/8k set.

Wanting a benchmark to compare my own efforts I bought some razors that were shave ready and honed by known honemeisters. Upon microscopic examination with a 40x B&L stereoscope I found that these honemeisters apparently did not concern themselves with removing scratches in the bevel. Since the primary purpose of my honing is to realize a satisfactory shaving edge, I don't concern myself with the scratches at all. YMMV.

As far as I know, newspaper is abrasive to a degree - naturally. I suppose that the act of making and calendering it, running it on rollers in a dusty atmosphere, bundling it up and transporting it to newspaper shops, displaying it, the trip home, etc, etc all add to its abrasiveness. The latter stages perhaps only affect the edges and outer leaves, but machinery wears and produces dust and this would affect all aspects of making it and printing it in the first place.

People have taken advantage of the abrasive nature of newsprint for ages to strop on. Perhaps you have only reinvented the wheel in this case.

The very air holds dust to a greater or lesser degree. Strops left open to the atmosphere are bound to catch dust. If they are protected they will still pick up any residue left on the blade from honing, storage, etc, as well as metal fragments from the blade itself. The finish of the leather may have introduced some abrasive elements - it is tanned in vats - open topped as far as I know, with bits of bark, etc, as the tanning agent. I guess trees are covered with years of dust, and crusty old bark isn't the easiest thing to clean before use.

A leather that has the top milled is likely to have less of this residue than ones that are left fair faced, but risk picking up grit during the milling process. When the grain pattern is impressed it would impress any grit into the leather. Something like a belt that has a surface treatment may not have such characteristics, or be a bit more robust so that grit isn't as easily pressed into the surface.

I examine the bevel while honing using a loupe - after every stone, and again after stropping. Yes - I can see micro scratches after stropping that were not there after the last stone - nothing like an 8k hone would leave, though, more fine and not as densely covering the bevel. I also see what the strop has left on the bevel - fine fibres, a smeary layer from oiled/waxed strops and latigo, etc. I am sure that polishing on a strop probably traps micro-fine detritus in scratches that were already there, in much the same way that some metal polishes make things look worse by leaving a dark deposit in lower areas. As far as I know, those scratches were already there and the strop has highlighted them and partially smoothed them over. I would think the same applies to newspaper - the darker print, in this case.

If you are going to use hi-tech apparatus, perhaps you should also use high tech techniques like clinically clean rooms, air vacuuming, etc. At any rate, you need to find a 'control' to prove your hypothesis, if only to help nail-down the source of contamination.

I'm quite positive that the higher the degree of magnification, the more striations/scratches appear, and that they are about impossible to eliminate no matter what you do. I don't worry about what I can't alter, and I am not sure that my skin is sensitive enough to notice micro-striations anyway. If I get a good shave I am happy - this is the real world, after all. There are much more important things to obsess over.

Regards,
Neil

Thank You, Neil! Very astute observations and explanations. It makes complete sense to me AND gives some things to think about!
Finest,
Tom

I agree with AFDavis & Neil, you will never remove all scratches, they are a byproduct of honing & stropping. The scratches you are seeing are inherent in the substate we typically use to strop, leather, balsa, nylon, fabric or even your hand, or a result of airborne dust. Much of dust partical size is larger than .05 chrome ox.

Random scratches will not greatly affect the shave and if you strop on a pasted strop prior to shaving, you can remove most of that stria.

Try a fabric strop of nylon or polyester for cleaning and pasting prior to shaving if you want stria free. The polished bevel is the by-product, of a bevel and edge stropped on high grit paste, not the goal.

The goal, is a highly refined and comfortable edge. To polish the edge we must polish the bevel. The trick is to find the combination that gives the best, most durable and comfortable shave with the least amount of effort.

Once you get your Chrome Ox edges down, try CBN, light years from .50 Chrome edges.

Perhaps it is as simple as: your strop is contaminated with something (have you ever sanded them? perhaps one pce of micro grit is imbedded.
Are you using X strokes? are the edges properly beveled? Just curious.

Originally Posted by mdarnton

Ace, yes, I understand. I'm not implying the shaving is better or worse--I'm just curious about the scratches. This is a technical question, and what is really happening at that level of examination, not one about shave-readiness. Thanks.

There has been extensive work done by SRP members examining the various scratch patterns that result from different honing and stropping media. Methodology has ranged from "seat of the pants" up to examination utilizing an electron microscope. A proper search might yield more information than you are receiving based on your earlier posts.

One thing to keep in mind is that all stropping "Scratches" the bevel, one on the reasons on many of the MicroGraph pics that you are going to find with the search Bill mentioned, you will find a comment by me saying that shiny bevels are sure pretty, but meaningless to the feel of the shave..

Stropping on linen and/or leather will leave a hazy finish "Scratches".. Yes even Newspaper

Many types of stone finishes are not "Shiny" either, yet are considered by many to be some of the most comfortable shaves, in fact chasing a Perfect Mirror Bevel might very well lead you to a Fragile, Thin, Weak, Harsh edge CBN lends itself to very nice looking bevels, without harshing the edge, but again as soon as you go Linen/Leather is will haze it up again..

Now if you are getting deep Gouges /Scratches then either your strop has issues, or you are doing something drastically wrong while stropping..