Thread: X-stroke or not?

Originally Posted by Joegags

Thanks for this -
In my original post in this thread I tried to state that the answer to my question (why are x-strokes prefered) must lie somewhere in the realm of the angle of the force exerted by the strop on the edge.

I was having a hard time "seeing" the process properly in my mind's eye - this helps.

The "rolling" x-pattern (is it fair to say it is really more of a sweeping motion - that's what keeps coming to my mind) is used when stroping smiling blades for the same reason it is used to hone smiling blades, only the motion is reversed - is this correct?

In this case, you basically want to roll (or sweep, in my mind!) the blade so the tangent of each point on the line of the smiling edge moves, at some point during the stroke, in a manner that is perpendicular to the length of the strop. Quite a mouthfull, but is that right?

thanks again for your reply

Hello,

If my reply was too strong (which it probably was to this thread) it's because I've gotten a little frustrated at the bandwagon of bad advice about getting a wider strop so you don't need the X-stroke.

You're thinking about this extremely precisely, which is impressive. I don't think the critical detail is in the edge being tangent to the direction of motion, at least not for stropping. As others have already explained, the reason for the X-stroke is simply to ensure even contact between all parts of the blade and all parts of the strop, over the time of the stropping session and over the lifetime of the strop/blade/stropper, whichever is shortest.

When honing with a rolling X, the point is to be sure the heel and toe of the blade get equal time on the hone. On a smiling blade, you need this modification or else only the blade's belly gets the hone's full effect and you'll end up with really uneven hone wear and unsatisfactory edges at the heel and toe.

With any X-stroke on the hone, you'll end up with striations that are slightly angled from perpendicular. If you do a 10-degree X, your striations will be at 80 degrees to the edge. With a rolling-X stroke your striations may be more perpendicular to the edge at each point (more nearly tangent to it, to be as exact as you), but that's more an artifact of the honing motion than a goal. The rolling X's goal, again, is simply to get all the parts of a smiling edge in equal contact with the hone.

For a smiling blade on the strop, you don't need the rolling motion, at least not with a hanging strop. This is because the strop will flex to stay in pretty good contact with the blade's contour. On a paddle strop you might want to mix a little pivot into the stroke, like a reversed rolling X. I'll have to ponder that, and play a little with my paddle strop, before offering anything more certain.

I hope this helps. I'm like you, I don't like black-box explanations.

Best wishes.

Originally Posted by roughkype

.

When honing with a rolling X, the point is to be sure the heel and toe of the blade get equal time on the hone.

Not quite, the reason to do so is to ensure each part of the blade get good contact with the hone. The time on the hone the heel spends compared to the toe is different, but so is the force applied. He heel gets more pressure down on the hone compared to the toe, but the toe spends more time on the hone.

Originally Posted by roughkype

Hello,

If my reply was too strong (which it probably was to this thread) it's because I've gotten a little frustrated at the bandwagon of bad advice about getting a wider strop so you don't need the X-stroke.

You're thinking about this extremely precisely, which is impressive. I don't think the critical detail is in the edge being tangent to the direction of motion, at least not for stropping. As others have already explained, the reason for the X-stroke is simply to ensure even contact between all parts of the blade and all parts of the strop, over the time of the stropping session and over the lifetime of the strop/blade/stropper, whichever is shortest.

When honing with a rolling X, the point is to be sure the heel and toe of the blade get equal time on the hone. On a smiling blade, you need this modification or else only the blade's belly gets the hone's full effect and you'll end up with really uneven hone wear and unsatisfactory edges at the heel and toe.

With any X-stroke on the hone, you'll end up with striations that are slightly angled from perpendicular. If you do a 10-degree X, your striations will be at 80 degrees to the edge. With a rolling-X stroke your striations may be more perpendicular to the edge at each point (more nearly tangent to it, to be as exact as you), but that's more an artifact of the honing motion than a goal. The rolling X's goal, again, is simply to get all the parts of a smiling edge in equal contact with the hone.

For a smiling blade on the strop, you don't need the rolling motion, at least not with a hanging strop. This is because the strop will flex to stay in pretty good contact with the blade's contour. On a paddle strop you might want to mix a little pivot into the stroke, like a reversed rolling X. I'll have to ponder that, and play a little with my paddle strop, before offering anything more certain.

I hope this helps. I'm like you, I don't like black-box explanations.

Best wishes.

Thank you very much for this post - it is extremely helpful!
Gags

Originally Posted by mainaman

He heel gets more pressure down on the hone compared to the toe, but the toe spends more time on the hone.

Is this simply because the heel is closer to the tang and your grip, making it more ridgid, whereas the toe is farther away and is influenced by the flex of the blade?

Originally Posted by roughkype

Hello,

You're thinking about this extremely precisely...

I am an A.P. Biology teacher - this is my very nature!
Faculty meetings are ofter longer than they need to be because of me - I guess I can be a bit of a pain in the ass. But at least everyone knows where I stand and I walk away knowing more than I did when I walked in!

Thanks again

Originally Posted by Joegags

Is this simply because the heel is closer to the tang and your grip, making it more ridgid, whereas the toe is farther away and is influenced by the flex of the blade?

There is more pressure down towards the heel than the toe. The blade is not flexing the way you are thinking, the spine is rigid. You can get flex on the edge side of the blade if you apply too much pressure down in that direction.

Originally Posted by mainaman

There is more pressure down towards the heel than the toe.

Why? Is it because the heel is closer to your grip, and therefore receives more downward pressure as a natural result?

Originally Posted by Joegags

Why? Is it because the heel is closer to your grip, and therefore receives more downward pressure as a natural result?

Yes the bevel has to be on the hone at all times, that means the torque of all forces acting on the razor is zero. That means that the the downward force at the heel is larger than the force at the toe, the pivot point being the edge of the hone.

Originally Posted by Joegags

I am an A.P. Biology teacher - this is my very nature!
Faculty meetings are ofter longer than they need to be because of me - I guess I can be a bit of a pain in the ass. But at least everyone knows where I stand and I walk away knowing more than I did when I walked in!

Thanks again

I remember AP biology! She was blonde!

Interesting thread. I would like to throw in my .02 cents if no one minds. I plan on doing it anyway, so . . .

One of the biggest limitations in our media is that we always seem to think and discuss in 2 dimensions. My primary concern, and there are a few reasons (but the primary one), requires a little 3D thinking. But, it's pretty simple.

A razor is not a flat object; it possesses two almost opposing thicknesses. A thick rigid spine leading to a thin fragile edge.

The rigid spine can take all manner of direct perpendicularly applied pressure. It will not break, bend, or yield.

The edge is entirely the opposite. It can accept no perpendicular pressure at all. Zero. Nada. I think of it this way whenever I hone or strop. It sounds a little zen like,but, "only the edge can support the edge against pressure". There is no other steel anywhere else. So only the middle of the edge can protect either the tip or the toe against pressure. Otherwise it bends.

Both honing and stropping apply pressure directly perpendicular to the edge. Thus, unknowingly, many are constantly destroying their own edges. It takes time, but it happens. In order to keep an edge running for the long run you need to "shave" at the metal without any bending ever. Sideways?

So, finally, we come to the problem from a more simple perspective. If we accept that we can/should never bend the edge. And, I suppose, we have to accept that an edge is fragile.

How can anyone hone or strop an edge without using some kind of a high angle or x pattern?

Not sure if that point really helps or not, but I thought I'd throw in my morning musings . . .

If you follow the logic you might start using a high angle AND an x pattern. Then, simply document the time between re-honing.

iPad so my grammar/punct isn't too good.