Thread: Shell Cordovan Strop Question

Originally Posted by JimR

I'm fairly certain Jimmy was referring to the original post, in which it was said

Neil's Cordovan shell strops start at 129 GBP...not cheaper than non-shell cordovan strops, so I assume they're talking about different vendors.

I myself would be curious to know what site he's talking about, with cheap shell cordovan strops...

Thanks for clarifying, Jim ... my bad.

Originally Posted by JDeviere

I think I chose some bad wording. What I meant was I found a vendor who sells shell cordovan strops for less than the non-shell Kanayamas. They are 3" wide and seem pretty big since they are both longer than my destroyed dovo.
Now I am terribly intimidated because the master has recommended the Kanayama basically. I know I can't go wrong. I think I am goign to take a chance on the shell because they are American made. It may not pan out, but for $200 I can get a large shell cordovan strop and I don;t think thats a terrible price because the big Kanayama is going to cost that or more.

If it doesn't work out, I will kick myself and tell everyone so they can say I told you so. I figure with the economy now, it would be more patriotic for me personally to buy American made products. I am sorry for the confusion.
Special thanks to JimmyHAD for his advice!

Just to clarify, Kanayama is shell cordovan, but as JimmyHAD said the end treatment performed by the maker is different from other stropmakers, so it's got a different texture.

"Cordovan" will always remain a mystery for me.

"Cordovan" is a very generic term that can mean anyone of the following and possibly more that I may be forgetting:

*A burgundy color.
*Horsehide Leather.
*Leather tanned using a process (vegetable tanning) derived by the Moors in Cordoba, Spain.
*Horsehide Leather tanned using the Moors' vegetable tanning process.
*Horse Shell Leather
*Horse Shell Leather tanned using the Moors' vegetable tanning process

Confusing, huh?

I believe you are interested in Horse Shell Leather. Horse Shell Leather comes from the rear of equine animals in the form of two ovals (I think you get the picture ). I have talked with Nick Horween of Horween Leather about shell leather, and he describes it in this way:

"When speaking about Shell Cordovan, you're referring to a particular type of leather. Specifically, shell cordovan comes from the rear of an equine animal. The shell itself is a subcutaneous membrane, almost like a callous, that we vegetable tan and expose in the traditional way."

I have also read that the shells are thin muscular tissue that allow the horse to flinch. Supposedly, shell leather is the most non-porous leather known to man. In this view, shell leather is actually not a hide, or skin.

Today, shell leather is used mostly in high end shoe production. Shell leather is also used in the manufacture of wallets, finger guards in archery, belts, and watch straps.

The vast majority of razor strops made from horsehide are made from the horse butt strip also known as "North of Cordovan." For instance, all of Tony Miller's horsehide strops are horse butt strip. The same can be said of HandAmerican strops.

I am very skeptical of shell leather being used in strop making. In my talks with Keith De'Grau of HandAmerican, Keith told me that leather tanneries producing leather for strops made little distinction between horsehide, horse shell, and horse butt strip when producing leather for strops. Vintage strops labeled as Shell strops could possibly have other leather involved. Personally, I believe that it was more of a marketing thing back then. Also, I have been told by Nick Horween that shells large enough for making a 24" long strop are pretty rare today (shell leather is getting rarer and rarer in total as well).

If you are looking for a good strop, you don't need shell leather. There are a lot of good strops being made today, and most are not made from shell leather. As others have mentioned, the treatment is just as, if not more, important than the leather.

If you have to have a shell strop, talk with your vendors and manufacturers to make sure you are getting what you want. In the end, you may never be 100% sure that your strop is going to be made of shell leather. In this case, you'll just have to place trust in your vendors and manufacturers.

Good luck and happy shopping!

Jdeviere,
My post was reflecting upon your first post in which JimR pointed out.

I saw some 'shell cordovan' strops being offered at thesuperiorshave.com

Like Atlshaver, I am a little unsure of what my shell strops are actually made of and will never know since they are vintage.

Leather material is just personal preference since any decent piece of leather will get the job done. Personally, I prefer my Chicago Special since it is fast and I like the sound of the draw on it. I do not dislike, but my latigo strops sit on my door rarely used.

The next guy may come along and say he likes latigo the best.

Alright, I think found the cordovan strops the original poster was talking about.

Here (Scroll Down):

Strops

I have read good things about this vendor. The Horween stamp looks legitimate. And from what I have been told, the lengths look about right for what one can expect of this type of leather. Wow, a 3inch wide cordovan strop! I actually believe these are what they are being made out to be. These strops remind me of strops made by a Badger and Blade member.

Cordovan strops - Badger & Blade

Originally Posted by altshaver

I am very skeptical of shell leather being used in strop making. In my talks with Keith De'Grau of HandAmerican, Keith told me that leather tanneries producing leather for strops made little distinction between horsehide, horse shell, and horse butt strip when producing leather for strops. Vintage strops labeled as Shell strops could possibly have other leather involved. Personally, I believe that it was more of a marketing thing back then. Also, I have been told by Nick Horween that shells large enough for making a 24" long strop are pretty rare today (shell leather is getting rarer and rarer in total as well).

If you are looking for a good strop, you don't need shell leather. There are a lot of good strops being made today, and most are not made from shell leather. As others have mentioned, the treatment is just as, if not more, important than the leather.

If you have to have a shell strop, talk with your vendors and manufacturers to make sure you are getting what you want. In the end, you may never be 100% sure that your strop is going to be made of shell leather. In this case, you'll just have to place trust in your vendors and manufacturers.

Good luck and happy shopping!

There is no need to be skeptical about my shell cordovan leather strops. If I list something as 'genuine shell cordovan' then that is exactly what it is. 100%.

We do have a Trade Descriptions Act here in the UK...

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

If I list something as 'genuine shell cordovan' then that is exactly what it is. 100%.

I could take this to pm, but maybe others have the same question I do - what exactly is genuine shell cordovan?

Originally Posted by hoglahoo

I could take this to pm, but maybe others have the same question I do - what exactly is genuine shell cordovan?

It is just what altshaver quotes re: his talk with Nick. To list the specifics:

• it comes from a horses posterior in the form of two small ovals,
• it cannot really be termed hide, because it lies under the actual hide,
• it is not composed of strands like hide is - this makes it wrinkle-free and very water resistant,
• the tanning process takes a full six months,
• machines cannot do the processing - it is done by hand,
• the process is a veg-tan process,
• the shells are set on glass frames to dry, then hand shaved to fully expose the shell,
• the shells are dyed then hand glazed,
• there are (reputedly) only two tanneries in the world that carry out this process.

In summation, the name itself - 'shell cordovan' - tells the story: shells (only available from horses) are tanned in the Cordovan fashion ('cordovan' being a corruption of Cordoba, the Spanish city that originated the technique). Simple, isn't it?!

Regards,
Neil

Really the main thing that causes my doubt button to come on is when I read about either Horsehide or Cordovan have such wonderful draw in addition to many of the comparisons that come from these statements. Modern Horsehide and the Cordovan that I have seen, start out so slick that you can hardly keep a razor on them and only after an extensive or a heavy method of breaking in, do they reach their optimum resistance which in all that I have seen is very very nice.

Many of the DIY strop makers out there just make strops based on what they see is popular and from popular materials. I believe and this is only my personal opinion, that strops have their own personalities and provide different results if you really test them. The normal guy though, need not worry with this as he will just have one strop and so long as the razor gives a good shave following it's use, all is well.

It seems we have these same discussion regarding razors, hones and many other kit items and it is pretty cool to see peoples opinions and well as the spread from DIY to superior craftsmanship that is out there. I still believe that you get what you pay for.

I have put well over 1000 razors to task on my Kanayama's and all of these strops have broken in well and produced good shaving results. I found that they broke in after just a few weeks of hand rubbing and needed no other assistance. I have also extensively tested Corween Horsehide and Cordovan. They both needed a couple months of hand rubbing and several applications of neats foot oil. Both also produced improved shaving results during the process.

Oh the choices.........

Have fun,

Lynn

Originally Posted by Lynn

Really the main thing that causes my doubt button to come on is when I read about either Horsehide or Cordovan have such wonderful draw in addition to many of the comparisons that come from these statements. Modern Horsehide and the Cordovan that I have seen, start out so slick that you can hardly keep a razor on them and only after an extensive or a heavy method of breaking in, do they reach their optimum resistance which in all that I have seen is very very nice.

Many of the DIY strop makers out there just make strops based on what they see is popular and from popular materials. I believe and this is only my personal opinion, that strops have their own personalities and provide different results if you really test them. The normal guy though, need not worry with this as he will just have one strop and so long as the razor gives a good shave following it's use, all is well.

It seems we have these same discussion regarding razors, hones and many other kit items and it is pretty cool to see peoples opinions and well as the spread from DIY to superior craftsmanship that is out there. I still believe that you get what you pay for.

I have put well over 1000 razors to task on my Kanayama's and all of these strops have broken in well and produced good shaving results. I found that they broke in after just a few weeks of hand rubbing and needed no other assistance. I have also extensively tested Corween Horsehide and Cordovan. They both needed a couple months of hand rubbing and several applications of neats foot oil. Both also produced improved shaving results during the process.

Oh the choices.........

Have fun,

Lynn

Well said, Lynn!

I agree about the slickness totally, and that they improve with use. I always make prototypes and use them extensively to familiarise myself with the qualities of the leather, so my experience here echoes yours.

In some of my listings I point out that shell and horse hide are not for the inexperienced user. I consider that anyone paying these sort of prices for a strop has already taken the time to familiarise themselves with the qualities of the product - either by extensive research, personal recommendation or by asking the vendor questions - anything else would be rather foolish IMO! I mean, you don't go out and by yourself a special tank-like utility vehicle with off-road capability when you live in the centre of a crowded town with difficult parking, etc, just because the SUV costs a bomb. You do the the research and get the vehicle that best suits you (which as the enlightened amongst us all know is a motorcycle... cue for heated discussion here!).

Regards,
Neil