Thread: Spoke with Norton today.

Again I'll say this: It is easier to hone on a definitively flat hone, but completely unnecessary. That being said, I doubt Grags' new hone/s are anything but relatively flat. Besides, a rolling X stroke can solve pretty much any honing dilemma if you learn how to do it. Grags won't need to even do that. We are not talking dished hones that Norton sends out. If that were the case, Norton's products would indeed fail in the market like Chimensch said... but they never have. If your Norton looks flat, then just use it. If not, call Norton back.

I have to agree that hones don't need to be totally flat to get good edges. I have never lapped my King 1K, my BBW came to me unlapped and I use it as is, and I didn't bother trying to lap my Spyderco med/fine pocket hones. I "lapped" my Swaty by rubbing it against another unlapped barber hone (sure, I used the pencil grid technique, but who knows if either stone ended up flat). Actually, the only stone I have that is lapped is my coticule.

Maybe I'd get better edges faster if I lapped my stones every time before I used them, but I feel I get great edges as is. I've also never (well, only once) had complaints from people I've sold razors to here on SRP, and JoeD shaved with and quite liked one of my razors.

As Philadelph said, if your hones are close to flat (which I believe many are from the factory), I think you will be ok. Indeed, if have found this to apply for me.

Can you hone a razor with an unlapped stone? Yup, you sure can.
Will it hone better if you lap it? Yes it will.
Is it necessary to lap you hone before every honing session? Nope.
Will it hone better if you do? Yes it will.

Try it for yourself for a hundred or so razors and 20-30 hones and then decide.

BTW, be sure to round the edges of that Norton or any hone. The edges can cause micro-nicks on the edge.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Can you hone a razor with an unlapped stone? Yup, you sure can.
Will it hone better if you lap it? Yes it will.
Is it necessary to lap you hone before every honing session? Nope.
Will it hone better if you do? Yes it will.

Just to elaborate– instead of the word 'better' above, I would replace it with the word 'easier'. The same results can be achieved either way.

If you had a progression with each stone of randomly and radically different degrees of flatness, the end result might feel sharp, but the end result would always be in question, the time and effort greatly magnified.

Different purposes, different beards, techniques, expectations may give rise to opinions of what is an acceptable tolerance for flatness. However, when the tolerances decrease edges progress faster and more consistantly. Is that better or simply easier- I do not know.

As a point of reference a "dished" stone will have higher edges and lower center just like a dish or bowl. When using a pencil grid you will be removing the lines on the edges first as the high spots wear away leaving lines in the center until it is truly flat.

Most factory 'flat" stones i encountered have been high in the center with the edges being lower (as shown in the photos previously posted). When lapping these the lines wear off the center first as it is higher then the edges as they approach being flat.

Typically (not always) long stones tend to be dished, end to end as the user stops short of the ends and they tend not to wear, hence remain higher. On shorter stones I usually see guys hone right off the end of the stone. This wears the ends faster and leaving a crown, end to end in the middle. Now I am talking old time, home based knife and tool sharpeners here, not straight razor guys. These are the kinds of stones I find on ebay....grandpas old sharpening stone that did everything from a straight razor, to a pocket knife, to a mower blade to the Thanksgiving carving knife. In the pattern shop of our foundy the guys all use stones and they seem to follow this same pattern depending if short or long.

Tony

I absolutely agree that in the old days many people including barbers used very out of flat hones...In fact I can most likely prove it, with a quick e-bay search, I am sure I can find plenty of old razors right now, that have frowns , toe wear , heel wear, wavy wear and just about every wear you can imagine...

You will notice a trend with this hobby, when you are beginning you will want to eliminate as many variables as possible from everything you do, from making lather to honing razors, try and start with everything as uniform as possible...

Norton's are actually rather easy to flatten, a piece of 400 grit wet-or-dry and a flat piece of just about anything will do the trick...
Wanna go the whole route get a piece of 1000 grit paper too...

I honed my razors on my Norton 4k/8k for about 5 months before I ever lapped it. I was able to achieve very good edges on my blades, comparable to my lapped Norton, but I began to see some indications of uneven hone wear. So, I decided to spend the $25 or so on a lapping stone, lapped my Norton, and it solved my uneven hone wear problem.

Once I knew that straight shaving was going to be something that I would likely do for the rest of my life, and began buying more expensive razors, buying a lapping stone was a no brainer.