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When bread knifing a straight to remove a chip or a small nick It seems as if the blade has a slight curvature I don't know any other way to describe it. My question is when I'm doing this do I need to try to keep the curve or do it as flat as possible,before I mess something up.which I'm apt to do anyway.
Before you start bread-knifing you should really read that thread a few times it is a Restoration method not a honing method so unless these nicks/chips are larger then the bevel I would not use it..
Now that being said if the curve is part of a smiling blade than leave the curve there. If the curve is from bad wear then try and take it out...
If you look at the illustrations (fig. 19 & fig.20 page 24) in the barber manual excerpt on honing in the SRP Wiki help files here you'll see profiles of a smiling blade and a blade with a frown. Smiling is good frown is not. Like gssixgun said, if you can avoid doing the breadknifing you will be better off. It is a lot of work to bring an edge back from that treatment. It is only worth the effort if the alternative honing would be as much or more work.
Been wondering about this, mostly because of two videos where I've seen the technique used. One is Harrelson Stanley in the Perfect Edge DVD, who called it "joining the bevel" (or somesuch), and the other is Mastro Livi doing it in a honing video here.
Anyhow, far from damage repair, both of them did it as part of the regular honing process. Harrelson did it ultra gently, but M. Livi actually seemed to bear down a little!
So what's up with all that? I've been meaning to ask.
EDIT: Nevermind, just saw M. Livi answer that exact question in the comments. He said it was done after the coarse hone "to remove the dead steel". I'm assuming this means knocking off a wire edge.
Bread-knifing is a Restoration technique...
Down-stroking, or "joining" I'm sorry but Harrelson has no clue about razors, I would have rather seen Howard honing in that video so I refuse to call it that..
But down-stroking (Bart coined it) is used to clear the edge before starting on the honing cycle... You can do this on a stone or a glass, I find it very effective when taking over a razor that somebody sent me to correct their honing on, I want to start from a known point... It is also very effective for a microchippy blade right after setting the bevel to smooth the edge and then bring it to Sharp at the second lowest grit rather than the bevel setter... These are all just tricks, and also JMHO...
I knew I should just ask the experts before I messed up.I appreciate all your input and the forum itself,their is such a wealth of knowledge in the experience all the members have and the ease in which they share.Thanks again.
Just curious, if you're forced to breadknife, do you pretty much have to hit up a 220 or DMT in order to start setting the bevel again? Or can you start out at the 1k?
gssixgun, I remember you saying in another thread that you can sometimes start setting a bevel at a 45 degree angle, then a 30 then with a few layers of tape, then removing tape as you go along.
I was just wondering what grit stone you use and how much pressure along the way.
A lot more steel has to be removed after breadknifing, so a DMT or coarse hone will speed up the job, but a 1k will work just fine too.Quote:
Originally Posted by thorxes
The 45/30 degree angle can be used to remove chips in the same manner as breadknifing but with the advantage of not ending up with a completely blunt edge. This allows bevel setting to be done faster after the chips are removed. I really don't think anyone should breadknife at a 90 degree angle, or if they do, then they should transition to lower angles as the chip is nearly removed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thorxes
I have been using a variation of this for about 1 year I am hoping to catch it on video at the Spokane meet this coming Sunday..
We took pictures of it at the Denver meet in July but they just don't show enough... I use a well worn DMT 325 and Lather/Soapy water...
You can take out a 1/8 in chip in about 15 minutes then be done honing 15 minutes later ...Or thereabouts.. Now this works great for chips, but Frowns and double Frowns (Wowies) I still do a straight down bread knife...
Edit: Just to set the record straight here, (pun intended) if you breadknife correctly you lose absolutely NO more steel than any other technique out there, in fact if you do it right, you lose less...
Yeah, this was the first time I've ever seen the double frown.Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Just curious; when you hit up the DMT or 220, how long do you expect to hit this up for before you'll get an edge able to progress up to the 1k? (# of laps, if possible).
There is no time, it is sharpness progression, you have to understand I do more edge restoration than most people do, I mean that is what people send to me to work on, are "Restoration Razors", so I get more practice at this then most, so I am pretty fast at it...Quote:
Originally Posted by thorxes
You are looking for that edge to feel sharp like a knife, then drop it down to spine level, and start honing it like a razor...
I can tell you that when I did the technique I use, at the Denver meet the guys mostly all said the same thing "I didn't realize you could do that, to a razor"
I will really try for a Video this Sunday...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gssixgun
Fair enough. Thanks for the info.
I could not agree more. I try to demonstrate the 45/30 angle at every get together I go to. Depending on the type of repair you are doing, this method really works great on both the 220 and the 1K stones. The only other way I will repair these types of razors is to grind the razor on a belt or wheel, but I still maintain the 45 or 30 degree angle because it works and makes it so much easier to re-set the bevel as you indicated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
Have fun,
Lynn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
Do you feel the amount of pressure used at the 220 level is a matter of personal preference, or should you be putting some decent pressure at this stage to remove metal at a faster rate; especially since you're not worried about sharpness/keeness at this point or more about the actual bevel shape.
Lynn, I don't know if you saw it, but I brought a 90rpm wet grinder to the MidMo meetup. That works great for major chip removal and still allows for a relatively low angle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
It is a great tool Ron!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Utopian
There is definitely an amount of personal preference when it comes to the pressure you use. I use a fair amount when I am doing this exercise.Quote:
Originally Posted by thorxes
Have fun,
Lynn
"A fair amount."Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn
:roflmao
Lynn has a great way of demonstrating what he considers to be a "fair amount" of pressure. He takes his calloused knob that used to be a thumb and presses down on your poor unsuspecting thumb and proceeds to crush every corpuscle out of it.
New honers here read all the warnings about little to no pressure when honing, but this is in the later stages. When setting the bevel, using a "fair amount" of pressure is just fine!