Torx screw etc pivot pin question

I don't own any razors that have the torx screw style "adjustable" pivot pin design. Glen had mentioned in his Hart Razor review that such a design makes for necessary retightening, etc.

Can anyone share opinions on whether or not lock tite, or other thread locking substances would work on locking down a screw type pivot pin? Don't they make different strength's of lock tite? If the "permanent" type was used, would the flex of the razor eventually work the screw loose in the bolt?

Info would be appreciated. Thanks.

Chris L

I personally do not see the need for screws to hold a razor together. Pins do their job amazingly well and remain tight for decades if done correctly. One can always tighten them with a spoon if need be. Torx stuff is alright, but is it really necessary? For me no. YMMY.

Take Care,
Richard

Chris,

Henkel does indeed make different formulations of Loctite. In fact, the have far more types then I realized. Here is the link to see the Loctite threadlocking products.

I use barrel pivots with Torx screws on many of my razors. I like them. I have found that if the barrel doesn't extend into the scales, the screws sometimes work themselves loose as you open and close the razor. If the barrels go into the scales, then there doesn't seem to be any twisting on the screws and they stay put.

If I was having Torx screws come loose, I would (and have) used the type of Loctite that you can remove if you need to.

Yes locktite works just fine, I use the Permatex (blue) medium to lock in torx and other screws that find there way onto razors...

But I echo the sentiments that Richard does too,, with one question WHY??? I understand that for awhile everyone thought that all the adjustables were way cool but, I am not sure if you noticed but I don't think one of us Restorers still uses them, unless they are specifically requested...
They just don't work as well as the old fashioned peened pins IMHO...

Just for some adjustable pin love, I'll say that for a newbie they're great. I used them on several of my first attempts at restorations and they do the job easily. They're also useful when doing mock ups. I always hand tightened mine and never used Loctite.

That being said, I posted a few threads detailing my recent endeavors in peening and now that I have the materials and am comfortable with the process, I'm replacing all my adjustable pins with peened rod.

I would be careful with strong or permanent locking agents - generally these are quite permanent (meaning, you'd break the tools or the screws before unlocking). Lightest one might work.

I've also heard of nail polish been used to lock down screws. After tightening, apply minute amount on the bolthead, not in the threads before. And don't let the SWMBO see you having a rummage in her makeup bag :). However, I don't know how permanent it would be or how it would work on razor.

For some people the adjustables are a blessing. I have several who request an adjustable just because they even suck at using a spoon to tighten a loose pivot. It's no big deal to tighten the torx or adjustable screw once in a while if needed with the correct sized tool. I use the blue colored threadlocker which works great.

But I only use them if requested and will sometimes use them for the third pin as those never gets loose if tightened and adhered properly.

adjustable pins, done right, work at least as well (and in my opinion) better than the best "true pin" system. The great thing about using good ol' fashioned pinning is that it's very inexpensive and requires no torx driver. But the bad thing is that it's very, very difficult to disassemble the razor for any reason.

I'll do conventional pinning if someone requests it, but I always advise them that the disadvantages outweigh the advantages by a wide margin.

But that's just me. There are advantages and disadvantages to everything and, frankly, in this case, the only disadvantage to adjustable pins is that if they aren't made right, they're hard to adjust or tend to work loose and they cost more than a bunch of 1/16" brass rod and #0 washers. And if you want to throw a wrench in for the user, then it's more pennies again. For people who are trying to pinch pennies, classic pinning is the way to go. The advantages of adjustable pins are that when done right, they'll give you exactly the amount of tension you want whenever you want without any banging on them with spoons or worrying about bent pins, which are VERY common in pinned razors and you can diassemble the razor for cleaning inside and out or swap scales without ever damaging the scales or razor. YMMV

Naturally the question that begs to be answered is what is "done right" ????
and of course when it leaves your hands and the end user takes it apart is it still "done right" ????

So far the only system that I have seen that looks pretty impressive in adjustable pins is the Feather AC system... Warning: DO NOT lose those little springs though when you take it apart......

Again this is all just my opinion and I guess 200+ years of razor makers using one system...

I'm a pinning neophyte.

Most of mine have screws, etc. As Robert says, bend pins are my personal bugaboo. I sent one razor out, that was nice and tight, but apparently the pins was bent. After the customer used it, it wasn't closing right, and chewed up the edge. He sent the razor back to me dissatisfied.

Obvioulsy, that was my fault. But screws are, and stay nice and straight, are quite stiff stainless, which makes for nice repeatable opening and closing action. Also makes for nice mix-and match scales switching.

Both methods have strengths and weaknesses. Obviouly, for traditionalists, there is no question which way to go.

One thing I do notice really fast with this discussion that is not being brought up is pivot hole size...

Those of you that are customizing and making blades, seem to favor a larger hole size and adjustable pins...is this because of a knife making background????

Also I am just not seeing the cost factor... we are talking pennies no matter the way you go...

A #0 screw uses the exact same 1/16 thru hole perfectly. A beefier #2 screw requires a larger hole though...

I agree cost is not a factor for me.

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Originally Posted by Seraphim

A #0 screw uses the exact same 1/16 thru hole perfectly. A beefier #2 screw requires a larger hole though...

I agree cost is not a factor for me.

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I was talking more of the Torx/Slotted in the 1/8 size and I believe the others are 5/64....or perhaps the #2

The #0 Microfastener stuff we are all pretty familiar with, I still use those for mock ups ....

I've been lurking because I'm actually quite interested in this (still practicing/trying resto stuff in the background, just don't have much time) and something that's come up as a pro is possibly switching scales. And something I keep wondering is, unless you make your own scales, or can afford to have changing tastes, how many people actually do switch out their scales? Like I'm sure you custom guys can do it on a whim, but if I had to pay $30 for a set of scales I definitely wouldn't be doing it that often. My other issue is cleaning- and I will say that it would be nice to take apart the scales every year or so to wipe the blade down, but if you look at the 50+ year old razors on the bay, sure some look like **** but a lot of them really aren't that dirty/corroded so I wonder how necessary that is if you take great care of your blade.

Glen, in taking apart older razors I learned that most of them have punched pivot holes (rather than drilled), and that many of them are not round and not perpendicular to the blade. That irritates the heck out of me, and I find it to be one of the things that cause a razor not to close properly. Therefore, I often drill out the pivot hole to make it perpendicular and round. Then I use an appropriate sized pin. If I use barrel 1/8" barrel pivots, I use then next large drill bit that I have.

I believe it is all in the details- what type of adjustable system vs. what type of traditional pinning vs. who does the work. Let's say person X uses adjustable pins of a certain style while persons Y and Z both pin razors traditionally. Person X's system may be better than person Y's, but person Z might do better than both of the others. I think that the disadvantages of traditional pins stated here have been exaggerated and same for the advantages of adjustables. Really, when taken care of properly, you may never need to disassemble your razor fully to 'clean' and likewise you may never need to retighten a pin. Still it's all in the details- we all treat our razors differently.

200+ Years of razor makers did it the way it was always done because that's the way it was always done, not because it made more sense or was superior. In days of yore, folding knives were all pinned, too, but pinning has some shortcomings.

As a razor maker, I use 3/32 pins because I can. :) smaller pins are easier to peen, I think, but also easier to bend. The larger the pin, the more sturdy the build will be. And I pretty much insist on using adjustable pins for my customers because I've had customers want to keep their razors but go from 1/4 hollow to full hollow or have some rust removed from the tang inside the razor scales or even with one customer - break one side of a set of ivory scales (dropped it and took a big chip out of the pivot end tip on one side). It makes maintenance a hell of a lot easier without any sacrifice except that "pinned look". I didn't like the #0 washers as pins from the start because they just didn't look like the genuine article from days gone by, and that got me thinking about why in the heck they used pins anyway since almost all high end modern cutlery uses torx or some similar screw system. Well, the answer became obvious when I realized what they had to work with 200 years ago. That's what was affordable and available.

With custom work from the blade to the scales, I have the freedom to use what works best and until I can find something better than the adjustable pin system I'm using, that's what I'll keep using.

But if customers insist, I'll use brass rods and washers on their razor. As long as they know the pros and cons and realize they'll never be taking that puppy apart for any reason, I'm all good with it.

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Originally Posted by ChrisMeyer

Glen, in taking apart older razors I learned that most of them have punched pivot holes (rather than drilled), and that many of them are not round and not perpendicular to the blade. That irritates the heck out of me, and I find it to be one of the things that cause a razor not to close properly. Therefore, I often drill out the pivot hole to make it perpendicular and round. Then I use an appropriate sized pin. If I use barrel 1/8" barrel pivots, I use then next large drill bit that I have.

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To be perfectly honest, I have NEVER had to re-drill or ream a pivot hole on any razor because of problems it caused. The argument of 'the pivot hole was punched crooked' has been argued over and over and in my opinion still holds zero merit. Problems in terms of the razor not closing properly usually stem from problems with the tang or blade itself than with the pivot hole.

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Originally Posted by Philadelph

To be perfectly honest, I have NEVER had to re-drill or ream a pivot hole on any razor because of problems it caused. The argument of 'the pivot hole was punched crooked' has been argued over and over and in my opinion still holds zero merit. Problems in terms of the razor not closing properly usually stem from problems with the tang or blade itself than with the pivot hole.

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True. The punched holes can look as crooked as a dog's hind leg but aren't the problem with the blade closing properly. Crooked tangs, warped tangs, scales that aren't flat or have uneven flexibility (provided a real wedge is used) all can make a razor a real b**** to set properly in scales. The only time I've ever reamed or drilled out a punch was when the edges of the punched hole were so crooked or evil looking that I thought it might cause severe pin wear after enough openings and closing. Not many were that rough, though.

I agree that the shape of the tang is a bigger factor than whether or not the pin hole is round and perpendicular. I think every razor I've taken apart has had a pin hole large enough that its shape won't matter if you are pinning it with1/16" pins. However, if you start shoving larger pin through that same hole (leaving less wiggle room), it does begin to matter whether the hole is perpendicular. Also, as I mentioned, it irritates the heck out of me if that hole is not round and perpendicular.Therefore, I often drill them out. I usually counter sink each side of the pivot hole too. To each his own...

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Originally Posted by khaos

I've been lurking because I'm actually quite interested in this (still practicing/trying resto stuff in the background, just don't have much time) and something that's come up as a pro is possibly switching scales. And something I keep wondering is, unless you make your own scales, or can afford to have changing tastes, how many people actually do switch out their scales? Like I'm sure you custom guys can do it on a whim, but if I had to pay $30 for a set of scales I definitely wouldn't be doing it that often. My other issue is cleaning- and I will say that it would be nice to take apart the scales every year or so to wipe the blade down, but if you look at the 50+ year old razors on the bay, sure some look like **** but a lot of them really aren't that dirty/corroded so I wonder how necessary that is if you take great care of your blade.

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It's not necessary to take a razor apart or switch scales for whatever reason you may have. And if you want to make sure you don't have those options, then standard peened pinning is a great choice.

Ok maybe the difference here is like Alex said "who is doing what",,,

I am not so sure that end users should be popping apart razors.. JMHO

As to taking razors apart with peened pins, I do that almost every single day...:) Ahhhh and that could be the rub, I do it almost every single day and I have the tools and talent to do it right....

I also have had to clean up a pivot hole very, very, rarely, I do sleeve the over size ones though..

We have gone way beyond what Chris asked in the first place though, which was how do you keep adjustables tight????

I leave that actual answer to those of you that use them, because my answer to that question, from my experience with them is a "Wrench" ....often...

Ah yes... keeping them tight. That's usually not a problem if they've been done well, but if it is, first thing to try is a little beeswax in the threads. Light loctite would also work.

Yeah, if you can't install them so they stay tight, then pinning is really the only practical alternative. Having to wrench on one regularly would be a pain in the ass.

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Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am not so sure that end users should be popping apart razors.. JMHO

As to taking razors apart with peened pins, I do that almost every single day...:) Ahhhh and that could be the rub, I do it almost every single day and I have the tools and talent to do it right....

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Exactly. I also don't think it is hard at all. I do it all the time in my own way which ends up being simple. It is also my thinking that anyone who does custom work on a razor (i.e. putting on scales) should also take on the responsibility of taking scales OFF if it should be required/requested in the future. On razors that I've pinned I have no problem with this. I even have no problem with this on razors that someone else has pinned. Then again, I've never had to do it on a razor I've pinned (traditionally) for any reasons having to do with the pin needing tightening or replacement.

Well, that settles it. Whatever way we do it is the best way to do it. :)

I like the torx fasteners, I also like the pins. I have had to tighten my torx fasteners, I have had to peen my pins. I never really thought of the of tightening the torx screw or peening a big issue. I have not noticed the torx fasteners coming loose on a regular basis.

I am a razor nut looking for and excuse to play with my razors. Besides that torx screw heads look cool, but then again so do bulls eye washers.


Was that six of one or a half dozen of the other?

Charlie

I have a few knives that have the Torx screws at the pivot. Like Glen said, the Blue or Purple Loctite (or other brand) will work just fine, but like others said, these will require a bigger hole in the tang.

I'm not sure how I feel about them on razors...part of me thinks it's a great idea, but then part of me says "stick with the peened pins" :p

As the OP, I'm chuckling a little bit since my intent was not to spark a debate on the merits of pins versus screws. But, I enjoy listening to anything razor and workshop related so as far as I'm concerned, this post can run whichever way it goes. It's all good.

I asked the original question since I'm cookin something up in my little noggin and it's related more toward screws than pins. This idea bouncing around up there begs the question, should one want to use some sort of screw system that would NOT be adjustable when finished, can some form of the loctite be used to ensure, once proper tension is applied to the screw, that such tension stays that way permanently?

It sounds like the answer is: Yes?

Chris L

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChrisL

As the OP, I'm chuckling a little bit since my intent was not to spark a debate on the merits of pins versus screws. But, I enjoy listening to anything razor and workshop related so as far as I'm concerned, this post can run whichever way it goes. It's all good.

I asked the original question since I'm cookin something up in my little noggin and it's related more toward screws than pins. This idea bouncing around up there begs the question, should one want to use some sort of screw system that would NOT be adjustable when finished, can some form of the loctite be used to ensure, once proper tension is applied to the screw, that such tension stays that way permanently?

It sounds like the answer is: Yes?

Chris L

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Sure. You could always use 24 hour epoxy on the threads and tighten it to your satisfaction. But once the work-time is over, that'll be it and there will be no more adjustment.

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Originally Posted by PapaBull

Sure. You could always use 24 hour epoxy on the threads and tighten it to your satisfaction. But once the work-time is over, that'll be it and there will be no more adjustment.

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i like that thought
i dont put anythignin the threads so the end user can ajust to there liking how the pivot feels
i would use blue loctite or somethign like it and ot get the screws apart or to reajust all you need is to heat the screw up a bit (sodering iron works great for this)
i often heat the screws of a pivot on a folder just to make sure it will turn without stripping the head out

I also have enjoyed the discussion.:)

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Originally Posted by L R Harner

i like that thought
i dont put anythignin the threads so the end user can ajust to there liking how the pivot feels
i would use blue loctite or somethign like it and ot get the screws apart or to reajust all you need is to heat the screw up a bit (sodering iron works great for this)
i often heat the screws of a pivot on a folder just to make sure it will turn without stripping the head out

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I'm with you, Butch. The nice thing about adjustable pins is the adjustability. I'd be doing regular pinning and peening if I didn't want the adjustability.