Thread: Argument for flared spacers...

Well I miss placed some spacers for a restore I was working on so I'm going to have to make some more. I was looking at some threads for punching out your own...

http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...e-spacers.html

After looking over this info and some similar info I decided to give it a run myself but for some time something has been nagging me about the original spacers.

I've noticed that many of the original washers are almost funnel shaped when you look at em (slightly raised at the center). I know the craftsman back in the days could easily make flat washers so I have to figure why so many razors that I've taken apart have this flared washer instead of flat.

So I'm wondering if maybe the washer shape has a good purpose and then it occurred to me. If there is a raise in the center of the spacer that sits in the tang hole. The the tang hole being bigger would be corrected by the spacers acting as a self centering funnel (possibly also giving solid friction if the shape is acting like a tension spring as well) (see illustrations)...



So going with this theory I picked up a hand punch at harbor freight for $20...




If you look at the male part of the punch it has a center point. Now if I use a drill on my material first then punch, I can use that center point in the drilled hole to make sure the washer is centered when I punch it. By drilling first that center point has no effect on the spacer and I can make a flat spacer rather easy.

However, if I use the punch first I get a slug that is slightly cone shaped, I can then use a finishing nail and drive a hole through the spacer and come pretty close to emulating what I see on the razors I dismantle.

I have not dialed it all in yet, but here are pictures of one flat and one not flat washer I mocked up to show you what I'm talking about...



I still need to file down the nub left behind and clean up the washers. but I'm betting I can get pretty close to matching exactly what I pull out of old razors if I tried.

So anyone think there may be some validity to my idea here, or am I way off?

I think you may have hit the preverbial nail on the head. Having a punch set would be way more practicle in an assembly shop where you have to make darn near everything from sheet stock. Several of the sheffield blades that I've disassembled have piviot holes that look to have been struck with a chisel rather than drilling the hole. Having a raised washer would deffinately help with alignment issues.
By Jove, I think you've found something Baron.

Thats a logical and well thought out argument. I reckon you might be on to something there...!

How does the razor feel with these flared spacers? Does it make the pivot tighter, or help centre the razor in the scales?

What advantages does this method have over using a conventional pivot bushing system where the pivot and tang hole are precisely matched?

I noticed that the washers on my Genco were like that. I assumed it was damage, so I re-drilled the tang for a larger hardened steel pivot and PB washers. Am I missing out on something? Should the pivot have some room to move?

This is an interesting approach, but I would like to offer the observation that this sort of funnel-shaped washer might not always be a good choice. This is for two reasons.

First of all, the cut-away illustrations you have included show a fairly generous hole in which the pivot pin seems to have an excessively small diameter. A properly-sized pivot pin should 'just' fit the hole in the razor tang. Of course, if it actually does fit correctly, then there will be no additional room for that funnel-shaped washer to sink down into.

Second point. On many razors the hole in the tang is not perfectly round. In fact it will be seen that many an older razor has a pivot hole that is elongated or deformed to a greater or lesser degree. If a funnel-shaped washer is used in this circumstance, then the 'funnel' of the washer will necessarily be forced down into whatever space it can fill (assuming again that the pivot pin is too small and does not fit correctly) and may very well become 'keyed' to the elongated hole so that instead of serving as a friction reducer between tang and scale the funneled washer will instead be forced to rotate with the opening and closing of the razor. The end result of that might be rubbing and wear between the outside of the funneled washer and the inside of the scale.

Exactly what Baron and I discussed last night in the Restore Chat...
TY Ignatz

The one point that needs to be very clear is that the steel should turn on the brass/bronze/nylon bearing washer that is what they are put in for.. Even on some of the "newer" razors that don't use "washers" they normally have a raised spot of scale matreial that takes it's place...

What you don't want is the washer turning against the scales...

Originally Posted by ignatz

This is an interesting approach, but I would like to offer the observation that this sort of funnel-shaped washer might not always be a good choice. This is for two reasons.

First of all, the cut-away illustrations you have included show a fairly generous hole in which the pivot pin seems to have an excessively small diameter. A properly-sized pivot pin should 'just' fit the hole in the razor tang. Of course, if it actually does fit correctly, then there will be no additional room for that funnel-shaped washer to sink down into.

Second point. On many razors the hole in the tang is not perfectly round. In fact it will be seen that many an older razor has a pivot hole that is elongated or deformed to a greater or lesser degree. If a funnel-shaped washer is used in this circumstance, then the 'funnel' of the washer will necessarily be forced down into whatever space it can fill (assuming again that the pivot pin is too small and does not fit correctly) and may very well become 'keyed' to the elongated hole so that instead of serving as a friction reducer between tang and scale the funneled washer will instead be forced to rotate with the opening and closing of the razor. The end result of that might be rubbing and wear between the outside of the funneled washer and the inside of the scale.

I am sure you're right about this. I have yet to restore a razor with a smaller pivot hole. I also have not restored enough razors to know what type of difference there is in friction from flat to flared washers.

I made this post for the resto chat the other night and Glen suggested the flaring may be due to wear on the washer from the pin causing the flare and may not have been intentional at all.

I just figure if it is just as easy for me to make a flared and a flat washer I should challenge the norm and figure out if there are situations where one would be better than the other. If there is are valid situations for flared washers, that becomes a new tool in my mental tool box to use. Specially on large pivot holes as this cuts out the time it would take to sleeve it or re-drill it by simply making the washers a different way.

As for your question for pivot sizing PDobson, I was under the assumption that the pin holds the scales together and the scales hold the razor in place. The Torry I restored had a larger pivot hole and I did no sleeving and it seems to work fine. So I didn't think the pin NEEDS to fit the pivot hole snug.

Maybe one of our experts could clarify the science behind the construction at the pivot.

This is an interesting thought, for sure.

Personally, I think that the way to go is with a flat washer. The razor being centered in the pivot hole is not so much of an issue, when the holes are drilled straight through properly. Definitely worth consideration. I would be interested to hear some more findings.

Originally Posted by TheBaron

As for your question for pivot sizing PDobson, I was under the assumption that the pin holds the scales together and the scales hold the razor in place. The Torry I restored had a larger pivot hole and I did no sleeving and it seems to work fine. So I didn't think the pin NEEDS to fit the pivot hole snug.

Maybe one of our experts could clarify the science behind the construction at the pivot.

The pivot should not be snug...there should be enough play so that it rotates easily..

I have a very easy "rule of thumb" about how sloppy is too sloppy..
The brass tubing I use comes in
1/16 ID - 1/8 OD
1/8 ID - 3/16 OD
These of course can be sleeved together for very rare occurrences of very bad pivot holes..
If the 1/8 OD tubing will fit the tang hole, then that is my rule of thumb and it gets a sleeve...
If it doesn't fit then I leave it be
If it is very close to fitting, or is out of round and close, then it becomes a judgment call as to whether I drill it out...

Hope that helps a bit

Thanks Glen.

So far, my only experience has been with my Genco. The pivot hole wasn't even close to round. I had no choice but to drill it out. The hole is slightly oversized (maybe .0005") and the blade glides smoothly with no blade play.

I used information from Chuck Bybee's website (Hardware & Tools - AKS™) to get an idea of how to do the construction. I used smaller hardware than he carries though. I wanted the pivot to be unobtrusive while still being plenty durable.

Phillip