Katana-Kagi (swordsmith) asking for input

Hello all,
Actually this is the beginning of my first post on this forum on another tread.

Since I am new here and this is my first post let me introduce myself. I am a bladesmith in Texas working in the Japanese tradition. I concentrate on swords (Katana, Wakazashi, Tanto etc.) But I have also done extensive work making woodworking planes.

I am a complete newbie to straight razor shaving and I am certainly no expert on kamisori but I am working on making some kamisori and would like some input on what I know of crafting Japanese style blades and how kamisori may be similar or different.


Kamasori, like almost all quality Japanese plane irons, chisels and many knives have a high carbon, hardenable steel insert forge welded to a low carbon soft steel or iron body.

The argument that this saves the expensive steel for where it is needed is a good one. In times past, producing high carbon steel was time consuming and expensive proposition.

There are other considerations as well, Having a soft steel substrate allows the cutting edge to be harder. The harder the steel the more prone it is to chipping-like glass. The soft steel or iron can help absorb and dissipate the forces that may otherwise chip the blade.

After perusing many pages here and other sites I would say that a kamisori can be most likened to a plane blade. A katana is a much more romantic implement but it is meant for slicing through flesh and bone while at the same time being able to absorb the stress of combat.

A plane blade is designed for shaving wood. Much as a kamisori is designed for shaving hair.

One of the essential elements of a fine plane blade is a flat and polished back (Ura). The front (omote) side of the plane blade has a bevel. The angle of the bevel is governed by two constraints. A sharper angle allow the blade to penetrate the wood easier. A more obtuse angle makes for a stronger blade.

Once the ura has been flattened and polished very little time is spent honing it later. 80-90% of the honing takes place on the omote bevel with the rest being used on the ura to simply help remove the wire edge.

I see the same on a kamisori. Now the Ura may not look like a flat plane, but it is. The hollow is simply there as clearance and to facilitate a thinner edge. The important flat part is right at the edge.

The most important angle is the angle of the back(ura) to the wood being plane. This is determined by the angle that the blade is bedded in the plane body. Hardwood planes are usually set at around 45 degrees softwood around 40 degrees.

The bevel angle on the omote side cannot add up to 90 degrees. That is, if the blade is bedded at 45 degrees the omote bevel angle must be less than 45 degrees, usually way less or it will never cut. The bevel will ride on the wood never letting the edge dig in.

A well tuned plane with a quality blade will sever the wood cells so that they refract light. A much more appealing finish than sandpaper and coats of varnish.

So,
How much of what I said above relates to a kamisori? What may be unique to a razor that does not correlate to shaving wood?

Any input would be appreciated.

Dan O'Connor

I'd say the angle of approach to the beard does not have anything to do with thickness of the hair, but more with the direction of the hair growth.
Obviously the bevels of the Kamisori meet at much smaller angle than a plane blade bevels.

If you have made plane blades, then a razor shouldn't be too bad. All you can do is give it a whirl and see. I'm not sure if you are making your own steel, but there are many western style razors made of the tool steels like O-1 & A-2 that I'm sure would work well as a kamisori as well.

Thanks for the input guys.

I have access to Aogami or Japanese blue steel and some old wrought iron. I will forge weld these together as well as using some monosteels as well to compare.

I have zero technical knowledge or skills, but this is a super interesting read and please keep the updates comming!

Hello Dan, Welcome to SRP. I hope you'll like it here.
I am always glad to see traditional craftsmen show up. I don't have a kamisori, so unfortunately, I cannot help you.
Your explanation sounds correct, though we have some people who know kamisori in great detail. No doubt you will get detailed answers in a short while.

I know this is perhaps not going to be directly relevant to your question, but it might be interesting in some other way: some people like kamisori style razors but don't like the ura / omote design. For such people, custom makers have made kamisori style razors with a symmetrical grind.
Here you can find pictures of the one made for me by one of our members
http://straightrazorpalace.com/strai...-straight.html

Welcome to SRP Dan. I'm moving this thread from 'razors' to 'workshop' where other razor makers are more likely to see it and respond.

Welcome! I am watching for more input from you!

welcome and subscribing to this thread....

Dan, I would imagine that using a Kamisori would answer most of your questions in regards to angles and design. A kamisori made by an experienced smith, that is. Henkotsu, Tsurayuki, Iwasaki, et al.

I can tell you, the blade angle of a Kamisori is far more acute than any plane blade.

Also, in terms of Hitachi steel only Shirogami ever seems to be used by razor makers. I have it on good authority (the best, perhaps) that for razors, Swedish Assab steel is superior to White or Blue steel.

Just my two cents.

Thanks Jim,

My thoughts exactly. I need a good quality kamisori to understand the correct geometries as well. That is good news about the Swedish steel. I can get it from Uddeholm here in the US. Any idea what grade they are using? O-1, A-2 etc or maybe some other designation they may use?

Thanks again.
Dan

If anyone is interested-you can see the building of my KAGI-BA (sword forge) from the ground up here. After several years absence from bladesmithing I am starting all over again.

Hi Dan. Nice to see you on another forum.

I have seen some debate in the past on honing up the ura as well as the omote. From what i understand, the suggested method is more of an 80/20 omote/ura honing. I only own one kamisori (nothing special) and it was honed in this fashion. I have wanted to explore the difference with only setting a bevel on the omote, but haven't taken the time yet on my own razor.

I wish i had better insight for you regarding bevel angles on Japanese straights. Bevel angle of western style straights has been extensively discussed though it would take a little searching to see if Japanese straights have ever made their way into those conversations. From the little reading and application i have done on my own razors it seems that western style razors can range from roughly 15 to 25+ degree's.

If i can help in any way, please let me know. I only own the one, but I would be more then happy to loan it to you if you would like to have a comparison in-hand. I am sure others would gladly supply measurements and photos if needed/requested.

-Donovan

Donovan,

The Omote/Ura honing debate is not isolated to Western users. Barbers were/are taught several ways. My barber, who gave me my first stone and Kamisori, taught me a rough 10/1 ratio, saying that Ura honing was more to help control burr formation rather than actual honing. My wife's Uncle, who is also a barber, was taught not to hone the Ura at all.

Mizuochi-san, the current maker of Iwasaki kamisori, said that he hones his at something closer to 2/1, perhaps 1/.75.

Personally, I have gotten my best edges using a steep ratio. It all changes depending on the size of stone you use and the pressure you apply, but when using a smaller razor hone I use roughly 5/1.

Dan, I'll call some people and see if they're happy sharing more details about their steel.

Wow!

You guys are great. This is all good info.
Donovan I may take you up on the offer. I will cover shipping.
I am definitely in the honing the ura side only to control the burr camp when it comes to plane blades and single bevel knives. They have a layer of hardened tool steel forge welded to one side.

If the Ura was honed as much as the omote
1) The hardened steel would get progressively thinner until it disappeared. Whereas honing only or mostly the omote side, the razor becomes more narrow but the thickness of the hard steel stays mostly the same.
2) The hollow would gradually disappear making it more difficult to remove the metal because of the increased surface contact of the flat.

I see these razors as a single bevel tool.
When honing the ura-the edge and the top only contact the hone creating small flats-correct? This would establish a flat plane and the omote bevel angle would be relative to this plane.

However, having said all that-I understand the dangers of transferring the characteristics of one tool to another. But this idea of flat ura-beveled omote is so prevalent in Japanese tools I don't see it changing radically for razors.

At this point this is just all conjecture on my part. As Jim said using a kamisori will answer many of my questions.

Jim,

I appreciate any effort to find out about steel choices.

Dan

Dan,
the single bevel notion is correct, the back is hollowed and is in essence identical to a plane blade or traditional kitchen knife.
The difference is the Omote, for planes it has to be flat, for knives it has to be convex, for kamisoru it has to be hollow ground.

As far as steel, Swedish and white #2 are the most common. White #2 takes the keenest edge of all traditional carbon steels used in Japan.
Iwasaki uses Swedish steel because he thinks the steels made in japan are not consistent from batch to batch. From what I have heard Swedish Steel he uses is close to properties of White #1.

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Originally Posted by Danocon

Wow!

You guys are great. This is all good info.
Donovan I may take you up on the offer. I will cover shipping.
I am definitely in the honing the ura side only to control the burr camp when it comes to plane blades and single bevel knives. They have a layer of hardened tool steel forge welded to one side.

If the Ura was honed as much as the omote
1) The hardened steel would get progressively thinner until it disappeared. Whereas honing only or mostly the omote side, the razor becomes more narrow but the thickness of the hard steel stays mostly the same.
2) The hollow would gradually disappear making it more difficult to remove the metal because of the increased surface contact of the flat.

I see these razors as a single bevel tool.
When honing the ura-the edge and the top only contact the hone creating small flats-correct? This would establish a flat plane and the omote bevel angle would be relative to this plane.

However, having said all that-I understand the dangers of transferring the characteristics of one tool to another. But this idea of flat ura-beveled omote is so prevalent in Japanese tools I don't see it changing radically for razors.

At this point this is just all conjecture on my part. As Jim said using a kamisori will answer many of my questions.

Jim,

I appreciate any effort to find out about steel choices.

Dan

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Dan,

I think you are slightly mis-imagining the structure of a Kamisori. The Ura is extremely hollow. Even if you honed only on the Ura, it would take a very long time to flatten out and remove all of the hagane (though, of course you are right about the thinness of the Hagane). Even so, doing that would eventually lead to the edge contacting with the Jigane on the Omote, which is why Kamisori are honed primarily on the Omote--to get all the jigane away from the edge.

Also, and I'm not sure how relevant this is, Iwasaki razors are hardened to a very high level--about 64 Rockwell. This is a point of pride with them, and a real pain for some of us honers. Just another data point.

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Originally Posted by JimR

It all changes depending on the size of stone you use and the pressure you apply, but when using a smaller razor hone I use roughly 5/1.

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Thanks for the clarification Jim. The edge on my kamisori provides a decent enough shave but it could probably be better. More testing is needed as you have re-sparked my interest! I will have to spend more time this week on it focusing on the pressure i am applying.

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Originally Posted by Danocon

Donovan I may take you up on the offer. I will cover shipping.

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Please don't hesitate Dan. I have plenty of straights to use and would gladly put a new edge on it if you even want to try shaving with it as well as use it to study the design. Let me know.

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Originally Posted by D.Sweet

Please don't hesitate Dan. I have plenty of straights to use and would gladly put a new edge on it if you even want to try shaving with it as well as use it to study the design. Let me know.

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Donovan,

Sent you a PM.

Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JimR

Dan,



Also, and I'm not sure how relevant this is, Iwasaki razors are hardened to a very high level--about 64 Rockwell. This is a point of pride with them, and a real pain for some of us honers. Just another data point.

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This is a relevant point. The balance of keenness, sharpen-ability and wear resistance.

It is a balance no matter what you are cutting. In shaving how would you rank the three.

I realize this is also somewhat of a personal preference. One person may not mind sharpening often if he can get a shaving edge quickly, where another would prefer to hone more at one time to get a longer space before having to hone again.

Dan

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danocon

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The hardened steel would get progressively thinner until it disappeared. Whereas honing only or mostly the omote side, the razor becomes more narrow but the thickness of the hard steel stays mostly the same.

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A minor point here: If a razor is kept sharp and free from damage, honing (or rather touching up) will remove only tiny amounts of metal. Regardless of the way you hone, any kamisori has enough steel to it that it could be used daily for hundreds of years without getting through the hagane.

It's not like a plane blade where you remove measurable quantities of metal.

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Originally Posted by Bruno

A minor point here: If a razor is kept sharp and free from damage, honing (or rather touching up) will remove only tiny amounts of metal. Regardless of the way you hone, any kamisori has enough steel to it that it could be used daily for hundreds of years without getting through the hagane.

It's not like a plane blade where you remove measurable quantities of metal.

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Bruno, the Japanese tool smiths will talk about their blades in terms of generations, as in handed down to extended family. The amount of good edge steel will last 1-2-3 generations of use. The smiths did not think of short term planned obsolescence.

There is not only a quality of manufacture, but a quality of sharpening/polish and a quality of use. DT Suzuki, in one of his stories, referred to a butcher who never sharpened his knife, because his Zen mind approach to cutting was that the blade did not wear. It's not enough to focus on only one facet of Japanese things.

True.
One thing in which the Japanese generally out-do is us their general care for things.
Perhaps not us as straight razor enthusiasts because we look upon razors as things that can last centuries. But as a society in general, we're throw-away minded.

Hi Dan,
Have just come to this thread.
The received wisdom for included bevel angle for weatern straights is about 16 - 25 degrees, they all shave.
To my taste though I prefer 16 / 17 degrees as I prefer a well whet edge to cruise through stubble even ATG.
Have shaved with a blade I made that was 20 degrees and didn't like it, the result was fine but shave felt like it was an axe, very forgiving though.
I know jack about Japanese straights so this may not be relevant due to different geometry and softer steel outer construction.
Just my experience, hope this helps?
Joe

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Originally Posted by Deckard

Hi Dan,
Have just come to this thread.
The received wisdom for included bevel angle for weatern straights is about 16 - 25 degrees, they all shave.
To my taste though I prefer 16 / 17 degrees as I prefer a well whet edge to cruise through stubble even ATG.
Have shaved with a blade I made that was 20 degrees and didn't like it, the result was fine but shave felt like it was an axe, very forgiving though.
I know jack about Japanese straights so this may not be relevant due to different geometry and softer steel outer construction.
Just my experience, hope this helps?
Joe

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Thanks for the info Joe. Being almost totally in the dark about straight razor shaving, this is the kind of basic knowledge I need to even have a place to start.
It's funny. I have kinda been looking at straight razors but to be honest the western straights don't really speak to me. Don't get me wrong-I can appreciate the beauty of them and some of the great work being done with customs and restorations. But the design and use just doesn't make sense to me-if that makes sense.

I don't remember where I first saw a Japanese straight but it immediately appealed to me and made sense.

Making sense is a difficult idea to explain. For me it means all the processes involved fall into place in a line. Now it doesn't mean all the details are worked out, but all the major steps from material to shave form a logical progression in my mind.

There is lot of fill in the blanks of course and input such as yours and the other generous folks here makes it happen.

Dan

OK,

Donovan was kind enough to hone up his Kamisori and send to me. I have been measuring it, studying it and shaving with it. (First straight razor shave ever-Pretty cool :rock:)

I also bought an old one on Ebay.

After looking at them both closely the handle is not in line with the blade. There is a slight bend to it.
My question to you guys with Kamisori-are they all like that? And if so-why?

I noticed in pictures that Maestro Livi makes his handle in line with the blade.

Also, if anybody is interested in sending me an Iwasaki for me to study they would get one of my blades back with the Iwasaki to test and keep.

if you mean the handle arches that is artifact from the forging process and is not a case for all kamisori. I would say it will depend on the level of finish or attention to detail.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

if you mean the handle arches that is artifact from the forging process and is not a case for all kamisori. I would say it will depend on the level of finish or attention to detail.

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Hmmmm
Let me be more specific and see if we are on the same page.

If you sight along the top of the spine with the ura to the right the handle bends to the left.
Here is a picture of the old one lying on the omote. You can see the curve to it. Both the one Donovan sent me and this one show the same curve.
Attachment 77363

I can't see someone who had the skill to forge weld and then forge this out would leave it curved if it was meant to be straight.

Just my thought.

Maybe it happens that the the only two kamisori I have ever held happened to be bent.

Or maybe there is a reason for it

Dan

i have a nihon kamisori that i will hone up and send to you to examine and use .......... if you want.....


pm me with your address if you are interested....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Danocon

Hmmmm
Let me be more specific and see if we are on the same page.

If you sight along the top of the spine with the ura to the right the handle bends to the left.
Here is a picture of the old one lying on the omote. You can see the curve to it. Both the one Donovan sent me and this one show the same curve.
Attachment 77363

I can't see someone who had the skill to forge weld and then forge this out would leave it curved if it was meant to be straight.

Just my thought.

Maybe it happens that the the only two kamisori I have ever held happened to be bent.

Or maybe there is a reason for it

Dan

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I do not think it is intentional like that.
I have 2 to hone right now and one has straight handle, the other one has handle that is not so straight.
IMHO it is random.

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Originally Posted by mainaman

I do not think it is intentional like that. IMHO it is random.

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I would have to disagree with this statement.
I would say that it is more something that is up to the smith's discretion. Does it seriously affect a razors ability to shave? No. But it does allow for a more comfortable feel in hand and slightly changes your hand placement during the shave. Making a quick mock up of a straight tang vs bent one i end up having less of a bend in my wrist with the bent tang.

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Originally Posted by D.Sweet

I would have to disagree with this statement.
I would say that it is more something that is up to the smith's discretion. Does it seriously affect a razors ability to shave? No. But it does allow for a more comfortable feel in hand and slightly changes your hand placement during the shave. Making a quick mock up of a straight tang vs bent one i end up having less of a bend in my wrist with the bent tang.

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I have seen variations in the shape of the handle on kamisori from the same maker which leads me to believe it is a question of finish rather than anything else. I personally do not see any reason the handle should not be straight though.

I find both styles invoke different respocnes in me.. I enjoy my western str8ts in an entirely diffferent manner than my kamisoris... But like I have posted in the past, shaving to me is a zen thing... Not just a persoonal hygiene requirement.... It has to do with the whole personal time/ meditation moment i get out of my day.. So i do see you point on th kamisori... I love breaking out the urigorami jnat, doing a palm strop and enjoying the complex close shave....
But, more importantly...How do you sit like that? What are you some kind of wandering kung fu panda? If I tried that it would take a medical using the jaws of life to unfold me...

just MHO.... but i highly doubt in a culture such as the japanese that people who take the time to MASTER the art of metal working... and have been known to take their own lives to keep from being shamed....

i find it hard to believe they would do anything by "accident" or that they would leave handle offset to chance or happenstance...........

every move they make and everything they do has a purpose... there are no wasted motions or efforts... this is a masters way.....

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Originally Posted by paco664

just MHO.... but i highly doubt in a culture such as the japanese that people who take the time to MASTER the art of metal working... and have been known to take their own lives to keep from being shamed....

i find it hard to believe they would do anything by "accident" or that they would leave handle offset to chance or happenstance...........

every move they make and everything they do has a purpose... there are no wasted motions or efforts... this is a masters way.....

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ye sit is very common, superb blades with poor fit and finish when it comes to handles and so on. there are of course many examples of perfect craftsmanship on all accounts too.

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Originally Posted by Wintchase

I find both styles invoke different respocnes in me.. I enjoy my western str8ts in an entirely diffferent manner than my kamisoris... But like I have posted in the past, shaving to me is a zen thing... Not just a persoonal hygiene requirement.... It has to do with the whole personal time/ meditation moment i get out of my day.. So i do see you point on th kamisori... I love breaking out the urigorami jnat, doing a palm strop and enjoying the complex close shave....
But, more importantly...How do you sit like that? What are you some kind of wandering kung fu panda? If I tried that it would take a medical using the jaws of life to unfold me...

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:rofl2:
I do have the klutch part of Kung Fu Panda totally mastered. I learned to sit like that from practicing Kendo and Iaido:jedi:

I understand the Zen thing. Anything can be a Zen pursuit. It is more important to stay focus though when a very sharp blade is involved.:tameshigiri:

Not strictly relevant I suppose, but mentioned here already... Have I correctly understood that Japanese wood planes are bevelled on the front surface? Western ones are bevelled on the rear (i.e. with the bevel angled only a little more highly in use than the sole of the plane. The rear surface is stoned only along its length, to remove a wire edge.

I don't see any reason not to do the opposite, since good western planes usually have a bevelled wedge adjusted to be just behind the edge, in order to make the shaving curl upwards. It always amazes me how often the Japanese do things the other way around from us, and yet it works. There are advantages to having a wood saw which you pull, as it can be thinner and have less offset teeth without buckling or jamming, but I think the man who knows where he is going would be better off rowing a boat facing to the rear. But for planes, I think the two systems would be about equal.

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Originally Posted by Caledonian

Not strictly relevant I suppose, but mentioned here already... Have I correctly understood that Japanese wood planes are bevelled on the front surface? Western ones are bevelled on the rear (i.e. with the bevel angled only a little more highly in use than the sole of the plane. The rear surface is stoned only along its length, to remove a wire edge.

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Well-No:D

First lets clear up the Front/Omote-Back/Ura thing.

In both western and Japanese planes the bevel is on the side that contacts the body of the plane. The flat part is what contacts the wood first just as you described for the "rear" of a western plane. In truth it can be either way. Some low angle block planes have the bevel on the side that contacts the wood first and the side opposite is flat.

So in Japanese planes which are pulled towards the user the side facing the user is the Ura or Back and the side opposite is the Omote or front. Seems counter intuitive but that is the way it is.

In Japanese terminology anyway the bevel side is the front/Omote and the flat side is the Back/Ura

On Nihon Kamisori it is the same. The bevel side side is the Omote/Front and the flat side (The big ole concave grind is the only there to remove excess metal and make creating the small flat easier) is the Ura/Back

If you want to be more confusing the Front/Omote side of a sword is the side opposite the body when worn and is the side where the smith places his signature-However early swords known as Tachi where worn edge down and later swords where worn edge up so the front was different depending on the type of sword. Then add the fact that many Tachi (which were usually very long for fighting from horseback) were later shortened and worn as katana for fighting on foot. So, the Omote and Ura could change on an individual sword.


I hope everything is now very clear :banghead:

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Originally Posted by Danocon

Well-No:D

First lets clear up the Front/Omote-Back/Ura thing.

In both western and Japanese planes the bevel is on the side that contacts the body of the plane. The flat part is what contacts the wood first just as you described for the "rear" of a western plane. In truth it can be either way. Some low angle block planes have the bevel on the side that contacts the wood first and the side opposite is flat.

So in Japanese planes which are pulled towards the user the side facing the user is the Ura or Back and the side opposite is the Omote or front. Seems counter intuitive but that is the way it is.

In Japanese terminology anyway the bevel side is the front/Omote and the flat side is the Back/Ura

On Nihon Kamisori it is the same. The bevel side side is the Omote/Front and the flat side (The big ole concave grind is the only there to remove excess metal and make creating the small flat easier) is the Ura/Back

If you want to be more confusing the Front/Omote side of a sword is the side opposite the body when worn and is the side where the smith places his signature-However early swords known as Tachi where worn edge down and later swords where worn edge up so the front was different depending on the type of sword. Then add the fact that many Tachi (which were usually very long for fighting from horseback) were later shortened and worn as katana for fighting on foot. So, the Omote and Ura could change on an individual sword.


I hope everything is now very clear :banghead:

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As swords are almost invariably symmetrical, it doesn't much matter what we call the two sides. But with a plane iron it seems quite adequately cleared up that the front is the side that comes first as the plane moves in its working stroke.