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Thread: Heat damage?

  1. #11
    Heat it and beat it Bruno's Avatar
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    Excuse me, but this is the workshop forum, not the good news feel good show. You have made a mistake, as we all did sometime. You learn from it and move on. This is not salvageable. No point in sugarcoating it.

    The temper of that razor is shot. Kaput. That is heat damage. And a lot of it. The color progression white ->blue->purple -> bronze ->straw is an unambiguous telltale sign of a piece of steel that has gotten way past tempering. Where it is straw to bronze, the temper will still be ok. purple to blue is still good enough for a pocketknife. And near the edge where it has turned white again, the hardness will be gone.

    We're not talking about a razor that has a spec of blue due to a buffing mistake. That blade has gotten hot enough to be used as a brand, along its entire length. The color is on the surface, but the temper will be ruined throughout the entire blade. And it won't be brittle. Quite the opposite in fact. But the edge is nowhere near 60 HRc anymore.

    So if you fix up this razor and hone it, please don't sell it here (or anywhere else for that matter) ever, without explaining clearly that the temper was blown. Because otherwise the next person will buy this blade expecting a properly heat treated razor, but getting something that is functionally just a pocket knife.

    Btw, you can still see sever rust scarring, but not a trace of rust anymore. I'd be willing to bet dollars to pennies that the blade has been pressed to a buffer by someone who doesn't have a clue.
    Last edited by Bruno; 05-29-2013 at 08:04 AM.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member dudness's Avatar
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    What a high speed buffer it would have been !!!

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Excuse me, but this is the workshop forum, not the good news feel good show. You have made a mistake, as we all did sometime. You learn from it and move on. This is not salvageable. No point in sugarcoating it.

    The temper of that razor is shot. Kaput. That is heat damage. And a lot of it. The color progression white ->blue->purple -> bronze ->straw is an unambiguous telltale sign of a piece of steel that has gotten way past tempering. Where it is straw to bronze, the temper will still be ok. purple to blue is still good enough for a pocketknife. And near the edge where it has turned white again, the hardness will be gone.

    We're not talking about a razor that has a spec of blue due to a buffing mistake. That blade has gotten hot enough to be used as a brand, along its entire length. The color is on the surface, but the temper will be ruined throughout the entire blade. And it won't be brittle. Quite the opposite in fact. But the edge is nowhere near 60 HRc anymore.

    So if you fix up this razor and hone it, please don't sell it here (or anywhere else for that matter) ever, without explaining clearly that the temper was blown. Because otherwise the next person will buy this blade expecting a properly heat treated razor, but getting something that is functionally just a pocket knife.

    Btw, you can still see sever rust scarring, but not a trace of rust anymore. I'd be willing to bet dollars to pennies that the blade has been pressed to a buffer by someone who doesn't have a clue.
    Ive bought blades that looked good on ebay, they have the rust scarring and cant take/keep an edge.

  4. #14
    Member pavespawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    Excuse me, but this is the workshop forum, not the good news feel good show. You have made a mistake, as we all did sometime. You learn from it and move on. This is not salvageable. No point in sugarcoating it.

    The temper of that razor is shot. Kaput. That is heat damage. And a lot of it. The color progression white ->blue->purple -> bronze ->straw is an unambiguous telltale sign of a piece of steel that has gotten way past tempering. Where it is straw to bronze, the temper will still be ok. purple to blue is still good enough for a pocketknife. And near the edge where it has turned white again, the hardness will be gone.

    We're not talking about a razor that has a spec of blue due to a buffing mistake. That blade has gotten hot enough to be used as a brand, along its entire length. The color is on the surface, but the temper will be ruined throughout the entire blade. And it won't be brittle. Quite the opposite in fact. But the edge is nowhere near 60 HRc anymore.

    So if you fix up this razor and hone it, please don't sell it here (or anywhere else for that matter) ever, without explaining clearly that the temper was blown. Because otherwise the next person will buy this blade expecting a properly heat treated razor, but getting something that is functionally just a pocket knife.

    Btw, you can still see sever rust scarring, but not a trace of rust anymore. I'd be willing to bet dollars to pennies that the blade has been pressed to a buffer by someone who doesn't have a clue.
    I'm not sure how to take you comment. Are you saying I should not have asked about this blade in this forum? And I also don't know how to take your comment about selling the blade. Maybe you have had to deal with many a person with no morals on this forum. If the blade is shot no one else will ever own it. Workshop forum is about restoring blades right? That is what I want to do with it if it is able and that is why I posted it here. Not as a good news feel good show and not for pats on the back. Maybe I am wrong about your tone. If so then my apologies.
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    Senior Member blabbermouth
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    Not sure you could get a blade that hot with a buffer,looks like it was held over a flame

  6. #16
    Member pavespawn's Avatar
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    Well I don't want to get it all clean and pretty and then it not take an edge. I guess I will hone it up now and see. If it does take an edge then I can go back and clean it up.

  7. #17
    Heat it and beat it Bruno's Avatar
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    My post was not a direct reply to yours, but to the people who posted something like 'it might still be allright'. You posted your question in the right place. There is nothing wrong with your question. It's an honest beginners mistake of the kind we all made. It's called a learning process
    We all bought duds sometime, and I know I destroyed more than 1 razor in the process of learning to restore. Though luckily, never a rare or expensive one.

    Your razor is toast. You can restore it in the meaning 'to make it look good' but not in the meaning 'to return it to being a razor. And the main reason I would advise against it is that when you are done, it may look like a razor, but not be usable as one.

    The main reason for my remark about selling is because as you've found out, the discoloration is only superficial. Once you sand it off, any evidence that the razor is ruined, will be gone. So whoever ends up with that razor will not know anything is wrong until he starts honing, and finds that a) the razor will cause unusually black slurry (because the metal abrades much faster than normal) and b) it can't hold an edge.

    Since you are new to this, you might not have thought about that, and just fix up the blade and sell it. Not because you have no moras, but simply because you might have thought that if the discoloration is gone it might still be ok.
    Last edited by Bruno; 05-29-2013 at 02:27 PM.
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    Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath.
    To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day

  8. #18
    Member pavespawn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    My post was not a direct reply to yours, but to the people who posted something like 'it might still be allright'.
    Of course there is nothing wrong with your question. It's an honest beginners mistake of the kind we all made.
    It's called a learning process

    Your razor is toast. You can restore it in the meaning 'to make it look good' but not in the meaning 'to return it to being a quality razor. And the main reason I would advise against it is that when you are done, it may look like a razor, but not be usable as one.

    The main reason for my remark about selling is because as you've found out, the discoloration is only superficial. Once you sand it off, any evidence that the razor is ruined, will be gone. So whoever ends up with that razor will not know anything is wrong until he starts honing, and finds that a) the razor will cause unusually black slurry (because the metal abrades much faster than normal) and b) it can't hold an edge.

    Since you are new to this, you might not have thought about that, and just fix up the blade and sell it. Not because you have no moras, but simply because you might have thought that if the discoloration is gone it might still be ok.
    Understood. So a tell tale sign is the slurry? I will put it on my Naniwa and see what happens for my own education. I expect to get shafted on a few razors I just wish it hadn't been a W&B. I guess I can find another one like this though.

  9. #19
    Heat it and beat it Bruno's Avatar
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    Slurry is one of the telltale signs.
    On a razor that is 61 HRc, if you hone on a 1K or 4K, the metal will take a long time to abrade.
    So it will take some time for the slurry to turn from clear water to grey.
    Otoh, if a blade is say 50 HRc, the same will happen much faster, because it abrades faster.

    And of course, a blade that is 50 HRc will not be able to hold a shaveready edge for any significant amount of time, if you can get there at all.
    Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath.
    To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day

  10. #20
    Member pavespawn's Avatar
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    I have to get smart on the metallurgy!

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