Thread: Paper testing razors

Originally Posted by eKretz

Easy, do you shave ATG or only WTG? I find that I can shave fairly comfortably WTG with an edge that is quite rough to shave with ATG.

I shave in all directions, ATG, WTG, and XTG. Not to say I do three totally separate passes. I shave with my right hand only, and cannot shave the left side in quite the manner I shave the right side. On the left cheek, I have a little pocket that develops below the outside corner of my eye, below the bone under the eye. I have to go back to get that ATG, in which direction the pocket doesn't form.

Rough is subjective. A scratchy edge would normally be scratchy everywhere. Rough only AGT would indicate to me that the edge is not keen enough, and actually probably would not give as close of a shave anywhere on the face, but may seem smoother as it cuts through the whiskers at more of an angle. This could also be an indication of insufficient prep, but I am assuming that was ruled out.

Your second sentence opens up the entire realm of what is a good shave and what edge characteristics contribute to it. We could duplicate 1/2 of SRP with that.

Without getting into a lengthy discussion, I could give you a list of points that I believe contribute to the most shavable edges. Most of it has been confirmed by test shaves of other shavers, without telling them what I changed, until after their test. Much of it may or may not be duplicated on other parts of SRP. But I find that tests attempted by someone by email or forum may not be as objective, as the methods may rub them right or wrong. My main objective is the best shaves I can reproduce.

Yes, that was my point. Some edges can be shaved with WTG and you'd never really notice the slight amount of damage that would cause trouble ATG. Good edges should do fine ATG. I was just curious as you mention only making two swipes with a razor, which to me would imply that you are only shaving WTG and might not notice even if there were any slight damage from the paper testing. That was a pretty sweet razor on the last page, has a bit of old-world charm with the scrimshaw look.

Originally Posted by eKretz

Yes, that was my point. Some edges can be shaved with WTG and you'd never really notice the slight amount of damage that would cause trouble ATG. Good edges should do fine ATG. I was just curious as you mention only making two swipes with a razor, which to me would imply that you are only shaving WTG and might not notice even if there were any slight damage from the paper testing. That was a pretty sweet razor on the last page, has a bit of old-world charm with the scrimshaw look.

I guess I might have explained that better. I understand your point, and the impression you got. Your impression was correct, and the implication might most often be correct as well. I am not new to this. What you suggest might be possible, and even likely with some edges, but this razor shaved so smooth, effortlessly, and close, I did not want to risk any damage by shaving further. I wanted the owner to feel what I felt. Here is a quote from the owner. He has a back problem.
"Woke up from the pain. Happens a lot. But I can still feel that cool tingle of rum on my face. What a great shave Al! You used the word "luxurious" and you were right. That was a rounded edge! I had that feeling that I just could NOT cut myself no matter what. I love the big blades--and your edges. That truly was a sweet shave."

I have a method of stropping, on a particular cloth, that seems to tend to burnish the edge. Once done, there is some indication that the edge is a little tougher than normal, and the feel is more than reassuring. It may be described as feeling as though the edge is not a tightly angled edge at all. ?

Thank you for the compliments on the razor. The owner agrees, and then some.

Again, the paper cutting does cause damage. It probably takes at least as long to learn it as learning to shave first did. With experience one gets better. Does it cause enough damage with one cut to degrade the shave? I don't believe that it necessarily does. Does that mean you can do it tonight? Probably not.
Cheers

I believe I have seen that particular stropping method described before, something with Fire in it or something? It strikes me as a possible burnishing effect perhaps.

I believe you're quite correct that one or two paper cuts won't damage the edge too bad. Stropping afterwards probably negates most of it, so as is often said for differing preferences or methods, YMMV. I don't have a problem with your method if it works for you. It seems as though you have your system down in a way that works well for you. I think other folks just took exception to the fact that you originally recommended it to a newb without highlighting that it might give him trouble without more experience.

Originally Posted by eKretz

I believe I have seen that particular stropping method described before, something with Fire in it or something? It strikes me as a possible burnishing effect perhaps.

I believe you're quite correct that one or two paper cuts won't damage the edge too bad. Stropping afterwards probably negates most of it, so as is often said for differing preferences or methods, YMMV. I don't have a problem with your method if it works for you. It seems as though you have your system down in a way that works well for you. I think other folks just took exception to the fact that you originally recommended it to a newb without highlighting that it might give him trouble without more experience.

A mistake on my part again. I had thought it was not so difficult, but seems many are not capable of the speed required. I have tried it on several styles of cloth strops without success. It will work to a degree on 'fire hose" type cloth, but better on another I have found. But have not been able to nail down the composition, only a couple of suppliers.

Hopefully I have learned to be more careful about suggestions to newbies, and if I do mention such things, I should preface it with the fact that it is indeed a destructive test, and difficult to learn to do right.
I know there are at least 2 or 3 out there playing with it. Hopefully they will return with comments and pointers of where new users of it may run into problems.
Thanks for your comments.
Cheers,
Al

Warning: Done carelessly or with improper paper products, cutting paper to test a razor edge can dull the edge and/or cause premature wire edge. (see end of post for description of wire edge). Information in this post may not be suitable for new users, and as such should not be discussed on other forums.

I came upon 5x8 notepads in search of the best medium for this purpose. They are available at all office supply stores in packages of 10 or 12 pads. This is enough for a year or more for most busy honers. The brand is not important, as you have a years’ worth with one purchase. If the next pack is slightly different, it is only a onetime adjustment. There are lots of other papers out there, but I can assure you, I have tried most, and this is one of the best. By buying a 10 pk you will have plenty of identical material.

Each develops his own style for different things, and your ultimate style may differ from mine. As you should do your honing, if you are serious, this should be done with concentration and the fewest interruptions possible. Turn the radio and tv off. A secluded room with an available desk size work surface and a moveable strong light is ideal, and would speed up the learning process.

Start with a sheet from the pad, holding in one hand, at the top edge. Place the heel of a razor at the top edge an inch or so from where you are holding, with the toe up at about 45 degrees. Carefully draw the razor toward you, as you allow it to cut the paper downward. This will take some practice. You do not want side pressures to be created. Take your time. Pay attention to the feel, sight, and sound of the paper. You would normally be using this method while honing, so have your hone in front of you, as you may wish to touch up the edge every so often as the paper will dull it. Cut a few pages. As you feel a little more comfortable, you may try to cut narrower slices to conserve paper, but you have plenty. You will probably want to do this over your honing bench, with a trash can nearby. The way you hold the paper and direction you cut will probably change some with practice, as you learn better ways to make the paper and razor work together. Remember when you learned to shave. For most, it wasn’t the easiest thing you ever did. This won’t be either.

Once you feel comfortable with cutting paper, you may want to make two or three cuts in places I would make one, figuring to do 10-15 additional laps to bring the edge back where it was. IE When I think I am near finished with the 1K, I make a cut, and compare it to another I will make after about 20 more laps. I am checking to see if the edge is still improving, before I move on.

As far as I can tell, paper cutting to test an edge started with knife makers and honers. However, the edge of your razor is much more delicate, and can be damaged more easily. That is probably why paper cutting has never been considered an appropriate edge testing method for razors. The worst damage I have seen is the premature development of a wire edge or some would call a rolled edge. I have never seen this bad enough to not be removed by 10-12 laps, max, on the hone in front of you. I have honed a few new, entry level Dovo razors. I find their geometry to produce a very thin edge, and somewhat prone to wire edge. To the point that I have had to strop long enough to go thru two wire edges before the edge backed up enough so there was enough metal behind the edge to support it thru a shave. This can be seen with experienced paper cutting, as such a razor will be more likely to produce a wire edge while testing as well. That doesn’t mean every wire edge you get is because of geometry, poor technique cutting the paper can certainly cause it as well. And it may take you some time and experience to be able to separate the two. Intentional poor technique can easily roll an edge, as was shown in a previous pic, using much heavier bond paper.

I need to mention here, one more time, that a very good and thorough visual exam before leaving the bevel setter, often 1K, is paramount to success in honing a razor. That inspection should include a way to identify small frowns. I think most people here will agree that perfection in finding faults before leaving the 1K will make the rest of the process much easier and straight forward.

I still hone in a room alone, with no tv or radio. Help your senses to help you. I have told some people that razors talk to me, and it actually isn’t a joke. Learn to let the razor tell you what is needed, and when you are done with a particular stone. 100 of this and 100 of that, if enough, is probably too much, and you are wasting metal. When I think I am near the end of what a particular stone can do for me, I do a few x strokes and make a test slice on the paper. Make another 20 laps and test again. When I am certain the last 20 laps made no improvement, it is time to move on. If too much pressure begins to cause microscopic chips, you will feel and hear them. If a wire edge develops, you will hear it instantly. If you have a small frown that you didn’t catch, or a spot where the hone is not getting to the edge on both sides, you will see the edge slide over a spot without cutting the paper. If the last instance happens to you, it may be time to reassess your visual exam methods.

I test shave every razor I hone. It is the only true test, and even then cannot be certain to shave the next face exactly the same. That said, I would love to not have to test shave each. My method of stropping has very predictable results, but I am never quite sure how many laps it will take. The only methods I have to determine if I have reached my goal is with a microscope, (awkward to use) or a paper test. The paper test is at least 90% accurate in telling me that a razor is ready for the test shave. And that 90% will need nothing further at shave time. At that point the razor will float thru the paper as though under its own weight, and make almost no sound, if any. The edge of the paper where you cut will be slicker than the factory edge. The feel and sound will be completely consistent from heel to toe. If it isn’t, I am not done.
Learn to get the most from each test. Heel to toe. Get a smooth slow cut, listen, watch, feel. They will each reinforce the other. If your honing is lacking a little near the ends, you will be able to detect that long before you have gotten to the test shave, and you will have corrected it.

Like shaving, or honing itself, the more practice you get, the more the concentration and lack of interruptions, the more you will get from your tests. Many may never see a point to develop this much further. Up to you what you do with it and to what point you take it. If you learn this on razors, you will be able to use it with almost any sharp edge. If you ever happen to attempt to hone a razor with metal fatigue, you may very well reach a point that the tests get no better. If your paper cutting has gotten very smooth, you may get all of the way to the test shave before you realize that the edge is not stable enough to complete a shave. No test will always find every potential problem. With practice you will hopefully learn to recognize your intuition, and trust it more. In the last case, you might detect that something about this edge is not right. A few more cuts may help you to start to establish what it is, if the edge seems to deteriorate more quickly than you have grown used to. Remember, slow, easy, draw through the paper, from end to end. Can tell you a lot, if you are listening to your razor talk to you.

Wire edge: Puma factory refers to it as a bur, some refer to it as a feather edge, or sometimes rolled edge. I personally feel a ‘rolled edge’ to describe something a little more severe, but some may use some terms interchangeably. In all cases, it is a very thin edge that has been forced far enough in one direction that it does not return to its proper position by itself. It can occur in honing from not honing enough with edge forward, or using too much pressure. Can also form from too much pressure stropping. Very minor wire edges are very common on very thin edged razors, and need to be honed off or sometimes stropped off. Generally, each time one is removed, the metal behind the new edge will be a little heavier with more support.

Been a while, but believe the thread is still open to comments. Still getting views. Has anyone tried this? Any success or failures?
Cheers,