Thread: Side Stroke, Side Honing Revisited?

Yes, jointing is perpendicular to the stone and can be done any number of ways, typically I and others, lightly drag the edge of the razor on a corner of the stone (from the upper vertical side to the side of the stone) or on the corner of the bottom edge (as the stone faces me) from the face to the bottom side, or as Alex demonstrated in his video, on the stone face.

Keep in mind these are very light (weight of the blade) strokes that allow the edge to be quickly recreated, with few strokes.

The traditional Japanese Vibrating technique was only used at the final finish stone.

I am doing Side Honing, with longer strokes, at each stone. Once the vertical stria is removed, I move to the next stone in progression.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

Yes, jointing is perpendicular to the stone and can be done any number of ways, typically I and others, lightly drag the edge of the razor on a corner of the stone (from the upper vertical side to the side of the stone) or on the corner of the bottom edge (as the stone faces me) from the face to the bottom side, or as Alex demonstrated in his video, on the stone face.

Keep in mind these are very light (weight of the blade) strokes that allow the edge to be quickly recreated, with few strokes.

The traditional Japanese Vibrating technique was only used at the final finish stone.

I am doing Side Honing, with longer strokes, at each stone. Once the vertical stria is removed, I move to the next stone in progression.

E.

Thank for the topic and I am excited by your system. You have taken up the use with synthetics where Iwasaki-san had only just begun.

I think that you are finding out that stones cut faster and remove previous scratches faster than most people have been able to observe. With your progression of stones you are with just a few strokes, removing the previous scratches more easily partly because the side strokes are perpendicular to the previous scratches and the stones grit is a bit finer than the one before it. This is good technique.

If anyone here has a copy of the Iwasaki brochure in the original japanese form I would like to have a reproduction of it for a fresh translation.

best regards,
Alx

JimR, a member here (although much less active in recent years) and who’s blog can be found at (Eastern Smooth ) made the translation referred to in the OP. He would be the one I would contact (via the blog) if I was looking for the original Japanese text.

Originally Posted by Euclid440

My question, is Iwasaki describing a breadknife/jointing technique or a horizontal stroke, up and down, parallel to the edge, with the spine and edge flat on the stone? At the time, I though he was describing, a jointing technique to straighten the edge. I am still not sure which technique he was describing.

Opinions were divided, as the description could either be a jointing or side honing technique. I began researching the possibility of Iwasaki describing Side Stroke Honing or what the Japanese call, Vibration Honing, a horizontal stroke, as shown in Takeshi-San video, linked here and in the thread.

The relevant section is called Edge Finishing, not Edge Jointing
You can't create "another false edge" by too much pressure when jointing. You can create a secondary bevel or destroy the edge with pressure so to my mind, there is no doubt that Iwasaki san was talking about a sideways honing stroke.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

The relevant section is called Edge Finishing, not Edge Jointing
You can't create "another false edge" by too much pressure when jointing. You can create a secondary bevel or destroy the edge with pressure so to my mind, there is no doubt that Iwasaki san was talking about a sideways honing stroke.

I agree, the nature of jointing it to bare the fresh steel behind the false or feather edge and that it does not by its very nature create a new false edge. And I agree too that it was most likely Iwasaki's intention to pass on the idea of sideways sharpening as a step to refine the edge. When I brought up the joining/jointing idea a while ago in regards to Iwasaki-sans pamphlet it was in part to encourage a discussion about the finishing times that Iwasaki was putting forth. Below is a paste-up of that part of the pamphlet. I tested it out myself and found that the sideways sharpening movement of 1 to 2mm for 10 to 15 minutes impossible and it didn't seem like a natural movement that took too long. Probably the same benefits can be gotten in a lot less time. Just my take.

Below is a cut and paste from Jim Rion's translation of Iwasaki-sans pamphlet.

Alx


3-Honing Time

Many people think that when they hone on coarse abrasives, they should spend a lot of time, then
gradually reduce their honing time as they move to finer honing. However, in reality, the opposite is
true: they should be gradually increasing the time. When you hone with pressure on coarse
particles, you not only remove chips in the edge, but also wear away the steel of the spine and
blade. Honing time for both Kamisori and razors should be divided as follows:
(1) Coarse honing - Botan Nagura - 3-4 minutes
(2) Middle honing - Tenjou Nagura - 4-5 minutes
(3) Finishing - Tomonagura - 5-6 minutes
(4) False Edge removal - Raxa hone - 10 seconds
(5) Edge Finishing - Honyama Hone - Japanese made folding razor 10 min; Kamisori/Imported
Razor/Iwasaki Razor 15 minutes.

In the above, most people might not notice that the final step, "Edge Finishing," takes 10-15
minutes. But when you try it, it will become clear.

Yes, I too now believe, Side Honing or Vibration technique is what Iwasaki was describing, based on the amount of time described in the process and that there was no mention of re-honing, as one would do after Jointing as Utopian posted in the original thread.

Though, Jointing does produce good results, especially with chippy edges.

And yes, 10-15 mins of no pressure Vibration Honing is impossible to do.

Originally Posted by alx

I tested it out myself and found that the sideways sharpening movement of 1 to 2mm for 10 to 15 minutes impossible and it didn't seem like a natural movement that took too long. Probably the same benefits can be gotten in a lot less time. Just my take.

Below is a cut and paste from Jim Rion's translation of Iwasaki-sans pamphlet.


(5) Edge Finishing - Honyama Hone - Japanese made folding razor 10 min; Kamisori/Imported
Razor/Iwasaki Razor 15 minutes.

Certainly 15 mins would destroy the edge on a Dovo or similar but look at point #5 & then think on how hard these razors are, even regular J/razors. I think I mentioned elsewhere you have to extrapolate the times in a backwards direction for other razors.
15 mins even seems a long time for an Iwasaki western but I've yet to try that technique on one. The last one I did was NOS & took very little time to make ready on a finisher.

Old hat.

around 10+ years ago when I was selling Tosuke's I had a long lost video of Tosuke himself honing a kamisori and he uses that slight side to side motion while moving forward and backward in the final finishing process. personally I've always done that with kamisori though I've never tried it with western razors.

it really does work.

Spendur, have you got a link to that video?

No it's long lost. The last time I saw it was over 10 years ago or more.