Thread: Calling the few Shapton 30K owners....

There are 2 reputable sellers that I know of, and that some of us have done business with.
the first is Old_School, who is a member here. PM him if you are interested.
The other seller is So Yamashita, over at www.japan-tool.com. He is not a member here, but he is a nice guy to deal with, and very helpful as well. I trust him implicitly.

How much is a h one size nakayama?

Originally Posted by Bruno

That's what's keeping me from the shaptons for now: what I heard was that it is very easy to overhone on ceramic high grit stones like the shaptons.

I believe this to be false and I can't recall where the speculation or assertion originally came from. I've personally heard from both Lynn and Dr. Moss regarding the 30K, and both said essentially that overhoning if the proper light touch with no added pressure using the traditional honing method would be hard to imagine happening.

I have never yet overhoned on the 16K.

Maybe the Shapton overhoning legend was either related to lower grit stones or more likely a combination of lower grit Shaptons (cut quick quick quick) and the "Professional Series" which I personally have no experience with but have talked with Japanese woodworking style craftsman about.

Don't get me wrong, I like all stones and naturals will always have something over on manufactured stones in my book relating to their unique magical quality; I just wanted to get this out there that I disagree with Shapton Ceramic stones in the high grit range being prone to overhoning.

Chris L

I've looked at So's site a few times with drool. Question on the Japanese stones: I thought you lap the side that does NOT have the stamping. Some of his featured stones indicate the "back" as being the non-stamped side and some of these non-stamped sides given their rough natural state would look like they'd take days to lap. What's the scoop? I use all stones I buy rather than consider them collector pieces. But........If I was going to pay hundreds (and for some it seems hundreds and hundreds and hundreds), there's no WAY I'd lap off those stamps; clearly doing that would decrease the value of the stone significantly. To me that'd be like paying $700 for a YG Escher with full back label and end label and scraping them off after getting the stone. Not a chance.

I have to admit I committed that sin. Mea culpa.

My nakayama stone is only 14 mm thick. This is what kept the price below 4 figures. The bottom is very rough, and nakayamas are very hard. It would take ages to lap it flat.

I asked So what I should do, and he told me that sometimes a stone is lapped at the bottom to save the Kanji, but he told me he doesn't usually bother, and that there are no guarantees that the bottom is of as good a quality as the top.
These stones are hewn free from surrounding rock, and if the material against the bottom side would have been as good as the top side, than they wouldn't have cut it at that point, but they would have made a thicker stone (does my explanation make sense?).

After carefully considering my options, I took my DMT8C to the top of the stone and lapped it flat, destroying the kanji. I felt a pang of regret, but not more than that.
There is 1 kanji left on the side, identifying the hone, but that will be gone too once I laquer it.
I still have detailed pics of the kanji, to be included with the stone in the unlikely event I am ever to sell it.

But I really bought this stone for using it, not for looking at it or with the idea of improving my collection. If I ever want to get rid of this stone I can send it back to So, no problem. Not all stones he offered had Kanji on them, and the price didn't depend on them. There were unmarked stones that had nearly the same price per gram.

Btw I lapped the Kanji off my narutaki stone as well because lapping the bottom for the same reasons.

Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

How much is a h one size nakayama?

That depends on your definition of hone size
Apart from size, the shape is also important. A nice rectangular stone is more expensive than a trapezoid shaped stone.
I am not going to say how much mine cost, but it is much more expensive than a 30K shapton.

If you don't mind using narrower / shorter / non-rectangular stones, then I think you are looking at 200 - 300$. Those are the prices I saw on Old_School's webpage.

Originally Posted by Bruno

I have to admit I committed that sin. Mea culpa.

My nakayama stone is only 14 mm thick. This is what kept the price below 4 figures. The bottom is very rough, and nakayamas are very hard. It would take ages to lap it flat.

I asked So what I should do, and he told me that sometimes a stone is lapped at the bottom to save the Kanji, but he told me he doesn't usually bother, and that there are no guarantees that the bottom is of as good a quality as the top.
These stones are hewn free from surrounding rock, and if the material against the bottom side would have been as good as the top side, than they wouldn't have cut it at that point, but they would have made a thicker stone (does my explanation make sense?).

After carefully considering my options, I took my DMT8C to the top of the stone and lapped it flat, destroying the kanji. I felt a pang of regret, but not more than that.
There is 1 kanji left on the side, identifying the hone, but that will be gone too once I laquer it.
I still have detailed pics of the kanji, to be included with the stone in the unlikely event I am ever to sell it.

But I really bought this stone for using it, not for looking at it or with the idea of improving my collection. If I ever want to get rid of this stone I can send it back to So, no problem. Not all stones he offered had Kanji on them, and the price didn't depend on them. There were unmarked stones that had nearly the same price per gram.

Btw I lapped the Kanji off my narutaki stone as well because lapping the bottom for the same reasons.

Yes - some you get lucky with and can lap the bottom. But a lot you can't because of the "skin". You really don't have a choice - no point forking out hundreds for a stone you never use because you are not prepared to lap it! An expert on Japanese natural stones can tell more from the surface, colour, and skin than the kanji stamps - I've been lead to believe that some unscrupulous miners will forge the kanji of better-pedigree stones to increase their value. Others might paint the skin so it resembles the skin of a better stone. So the kanji, while very cool, are not the defining feature of a natural Japanese stone. Those who know can tell a quality stone without the kanji. I imagine for these people it's as obvious as identifying a Dalmatian is to a dog breeder - you can put a sign around its neck saying "Poodle" all you want, but they know...

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes - some you get lucky with and can lap the bottom. But a lot you can't because of the "skin". You really don't have a choice - no point forking out hundreds for a stone you never use because you are not prepared to lap it!

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Those who know can tell a quality stone without the kanji. I imagine for these people it's as obvious as identifying a Dalmatian is to a dog breeder - you can put a sign around its neck saying "Poodle" all you want, but they know...
James.

So is very good, but he told me his dad can indentify a stone AND judge quality simply by handling it and feeling the surface. This comes from a lifetime of working with them, and building a collection of > 35000 quality stones.

Originally Posted by Chrisl

Question on the Japanese stones: I thought you lap the side that does NOT have the stamping. Some of his featured stones indicate the "back" as being the non-stamped side and some of these non-stamped sides given their rough natural state would look like they'd take days to lap. What's the scoop?

Some people have asked me about saving the stamps in case they want to sell their stone in the future. For that reason I have suggested lapping the bottom. If you aren't going to sell your hone on and you feel you must lap it, then just do it. I lapped the bottom one that was quite rough and it took an hour on #400 diamond plate to smooth it out. Don't know how long the buyer spent lapping it 100% flat.
Some stones come lapped both sides, because there is a crack on one side.

Originally Posted by Bruno

There is 1 kanji left on the side, identifying the hone, but that will be gone too once I laquer it.

Your lacquer should be clear, so that the sides can still be seen and inspected "if" you were going to sell it on.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

Yes - some you get lucky with and can lap the bottom. But a lot you can't because of the "skin". You really don't have a choice - no point forking out hundreds for a stone you never use because you are not prepared to lap it! An expert on Japanese natural stones can tell more from the surface, colour, and skin than the kanji stamps - I've been lead to believe that some unscrupulous miners will forge the kanji of better-pedigree stones to increase their value. Others might paint the skin so it resembles the skin of a better stone. So the kanji, while very cool, are not the defining feature of a natural Japanese stone. Those who know can tell a quality stone without the kanji. I imagine for these people it's as obvious as identifying a Dalmatian is to a dog breeder - you can put a sign around its neck saying "Poodle" all you want, but they know...

James.

Thats correct, the Kanji really only tells you which mine it came from. The only way to tell if its quality or not is to actually use it. Same with testing grit and hardness.
As I mentioned in my information thread I have found stones, that either don't have the "Maruka" stamp (which increases the value a lot) or the "Nihon Kamisori" stamp, yet they perform equally to the ones that do have the extra stamps

Originally Posted by RobertFontaine

How much is a h one size nakayama?

The vary in price depending on size, but if your talking the standard 8x3" size you are looking at an arm and a leg and perhaps a testicle.

I have one thats a little over 8x2x.07" and I'm selling it at at least 1/4 of what anyone else would squeeze out of you. Oh and yes its a Muraka stamped Maruichi Nakayama hone.