Thread: Bevel Level

Originally Posted by English

Russell,

It does matter.

Many shavers don't understand or want to understand these issues. They want a shave..

They know that a 5/8" hollow ground round point razor is a good starting point and gives a good shave.

The razor they buy is advertised as such.

Actually its an old razor which measured a full 7/8" when new but had a 6/8" blade the rest being the dome on the spine. The advertised razor actually has only 4/8" of true blade left.

The razor does not shave like a 5/8" full hollow ground but more like a 4/8" wedge. The blade is stiff and in need of a regrind.

They give up shaving with a straight because the blade was uncomfortable.

Yes, it does matter very much. There is too much con in the world already. Selling mutton as lamb is not the way forward in my opinion.

To me, this is hugely overstated. A hollow grind hones a bit quicker and gives a different shaving experience, because of lesser weight and because of different sound feedback. Other than that, flexibility has nothing to do with how it shaves. I don't think anyone pushes a razor hard enough against his face, to bring that kind of flexibility into play. At least I don't.
My small collection of razors is completely aimed to find out what kind of razor I like best. I've purchased from 4/8 full hollows to big lumpy wedges, and most anything in between. Some are brand new and others are over a century old.
I still haven't made my mind up about what suits me best, and I 'm starting to think that I never will. If I manage to get them nicely honed, something that's continuously improving, I like them all. I have not met one single experience that would support the thesis that flexibility has any direct effect on shaveability.

I agree with Russel that as long as the steel is good and the bevel angle falls within limits, any razor can be honed to provide a superior shave. I might add that not every razor seems to respond equally well to a given honing method. But that's a honer's problem, not a razor's.

With respect,
Bart.

I definitely agree with you guys (English and Randy) that some more specific and useful info ought to be provided with a razor that is being sold by a knowledgeable vendor. Especially if it's a recently manufactured blade. It really bugs me that the steel being used isn't documented, or provided. No other high-end cutlery manufacturers hide it, why should it be acceptable for straight razor makers to do so.

Bart, that sounds like my razor collection, all shapes and sizes, with the exception that I definitely prefer the heftier ones.

I was surprised to find the narrowest, lightest weight razor is my fav so far.

The flexibility that I have refered to is not exactly related to the grind or original design. For instance a new razor properly honed by a skilled person gives you the typical flex at the edge per design.

prematurely thin the spine by 2mm for example and the bevel extends much further, bevel is much thinner near edge offering less support allowing the edge to flex more-- that is the flex I am concerned with. Still not an issue?

or by artifically raising the hone angle one could add support the the 0 edge with thicker material- which may not be needed unless condition above is relevant

Originally Posted by kevint

I was surprised to find the narrowest, lightest weight razor is my fav so far.

The flexibility that I have referred to is not exactly related to the grind or original design. For instance a new razor properly honed by a skilled person gives you the typical flex at the edge per design.

prematurely thin the spine by 2mm for example and the bevel extends much further, bevel is much thinner near edge offering less support allowing the edge to flex more-- that is the flex I am concerned with. Still not an issue?

or by artifically raising the hone angle one could add support the the 0 edge with thicker material- which may not be needed unless condition above is relevant

If you thin the spine than the bevel angle gets a bit steeper. Add tape and the bevel gets obtuser. This affects the edge's behavior, but within the typical limits between 15 and 20 degrees, if honed properly, a razor will provide a decent shave.
On the other hand, if a bevel gets wider because the width of a razor is decreasing with each honing job, the bevel triangle is located at a thicker part of the blade. In that likely case, wider bevel panes make the edge sturdier instead of weaker. In other words: with constant bevel angle, wider bevel panes are stiffer than smaller bevel panes. (more steel to sustain the edge).

If a razor is usually honed without tape, the spine will abrade along with the edge, leaving the bevel angle unchanged for many decades. If the spine is always prevented from abrading, over time, with decreasing blade width, the bevel angle becomes obtuser. Also that would take a long time and could be corrected by grinding down the spine.

In 99% of the cases, if an A-brand razor doesn't shave very well, the flaw is in the honing.
We can discuss the genus of angels for the rest of our lives, the most likely explanation still remains that that your DD Dwarf deserves a better honing job. I am equally sure that job is within your capabilities.

With respect,
Bart.

I understand all of that except for the contradiction of your first sentence Bart. I believe you mean acute, as steeper and obtuse are the same. As for the last sentence, I am beginning to wonder.

I trust i haven't worn your patience buddies.

my real secret mission is to avoid beard prep. I am at times a bit lax from the full regime I have learned reading here.

Originally Posted by kevint

I trust i haven't worn your patience buddies.

my real secret mission is to avoid beard prep. I am at times a bit lax from the full regime I have learned reading here.

Most definitely not, we are all here because we like to discuss razors.

Beard prep is one factor, experience with various techniques that work for your individual situation is another factor, a properly honed blade is yet another.

For me, beard prep is pretty minimal: wash face thoroughly, rinse with warm/hot water until tired of doing it, apply lather and begin shaving. Experience and refined technique has made a big difference from when I first started out and proper honing was a big help too.

It'll all fall into place eventually, just keep working at it.

Originally Posted by kevint

I understand all of that except for the contradiction of your first sentence Bart. I believe you mean acute, as steeper and obtuse are the same. As for the last sentence, I am beginning to wonder.

I trust i haven't worn your patience buddies.

my real secret mission is to avoid beard prep. I am at times a bit lax from the full regime I have learned reading here.

Damn' yes. You're right. I meant "acuter". English not being my native language, I have been mixing up those terms for many months. I might have confused a lot of people in a lot of posts. I solemnly apologize.

Kevint, I have been reading your posts with a lot of interest. You strike me as very knowledgeable when it comes to knifes, steel and how to sharpen things. Without knowing you, I think that you must have earned your stripes over many years of being a knife-aficionado. I recognize some of that within myself (I've been sharpening wood utensils for half my life now) And then, you take on straight razor shaving...
I was confident that sharpening would be a piece of cake for someone with my experience level. Honestly, how difficult can it be? You don't even have to maintain a constant bevel angle, 'cause the razor takes care of that for you. That's what I thought when I started honing my own razors. Over the next few weeks, I got a good lessen in humility. My razors forced me to swallow my pride and get my ass to SRP and cry for help. I have a Pearson&Co razor that I mainly use to test new honing methods, new hones, different progressions, and such. Whatever I did with that Pearson, it never got quite as sharp as many others. Whatever approach I took, other razor always seem to respond a bit better to it. Don't think it didn't shave, because it did, the difference being marginally, but enough to raise a mild frustration.
And then I honed it on nothing else than one of my most odd coticules, starting with slurry, slowly diluting that to plain water as I went along. It was only meant as an experiment to see how far such approach could bring an edge to keenness. I didn't expect very much from it. But by the end of that honing session, my Pearson swiftly cut hanging hairs, to my surprise. I added a few CrO laps on a paddle strop, and now that old dog of a Pearson is my best shaver ever!
I'm not going to start yelling that everyone should dump all hones and start honing on a coticule only. Probably my other razors don't even respond equally well to that approach, but for my Pearson, it seems the way to go. Don't ask me why. I don't know. Maybe squeezing ultimate sharpness out of a hardened piece of carbon steel, is pushing so hard against the barriers of physical possibilities, that very discrete factors can yield different results on different specimen.
In that respect, ultimate honing not only takes skill and knowledge (and the right set of tools), but also a certain familiarity with razors that can only be developed over time.

For me, honing my razors has been a lot like herding a flock of sheep. One might stay behind sometimes, but over the long haul, they all slowly progress. It still feels as if my honing hasn't arrived, though. Maybe it never will.

Sorry for the long post,
Bart.

Bart,

I am not overstating anything and you should know better.

An unused or little used vintage razor, performs to a specification a modern razors usually finds difficult to match.

Tired worn out vintage razors however do not perform to specification.

Once one quarter of an inch has been honed away the vintage razor in my opinion is ready for the dust bin.

If anybody asks me, I would say that any new razor from European manufacturers will outperform a tired old vintage razor.

You disagree and you have every right to do so.

I am just stating my opinion openly and honestly.

Gentlemen who buy tired old vintage razors can judge for themselves.

They may love them like you do.

I do not.

Incidentally, if you can not feel the flex in a blade on your face, I doubt if you understand what I am talking about anyway.
Try a Case fully hollowed blade as an example and tell me it doesn't flex on your face.