Thread: HAD begins: DMT D8XX for Shapton 16k?

Originally Posted by Chris L

Lt. I know you're not advocating that someone who may want to buy a Shapton for the first time, maybe a 16K, must buy the GDLP (as an aside: I always refer to this plate as the GDLP rather than the DGLP only because the box its packaged in clearly states: "Glass Diamond Lapping Plate".
Attachment 15990
But, tomato "tomahto".

It's a well designed lapping plate and it works like a charm. However, my biggest concern here, and Kaptain Zero shares it, is that no one should be under the impression that a person needs the GDLP to lap the Shapton stones effectively. That's simply not true. Actually, I'm rather liking "topping off" my higher grit Shaptons with the DMT D8F 600 grit plate. It gives my 16K an even smoooooother feel than a 325 grit plate.

I would not discourage anyone from buying the GDLP. The fact is though, it's pricey. For about $15 more, a person can buy all six DMT 8" plates from 120 grit all the way up to their 8000 grit plate. That puts it in a bit more perspective for the budget minded.

I thought my GDLP worked beautifully in lapping my natural higher grit stones until my GDLP petered out on my for whatever reason. So I think at this point, and due mainly to my experience, the GDLP is being stressed by Shapton dealers as being used with Shaptons only.

Lt, these guys will tell you, there probably has not been a more outspoken proponent for the GDLP than myself even prior to when Shapton was an established and often owned product among our members (I certainly wasn't close to being a pioneer with the Shapton stones since a core group of members has had Shapton stones for quite a long time). For awhile, I was even on the ".001 flatness with your DMT plates? Ha, my .5 micron flatness and I both spit on you!". Ok, ok, maybe I wasn't THAT bad or, thankfully, I kept those thoughts at that time to myself.

I'll reiterate my biggest point here is the Shaptons can be lapped perfectly fine with the DMT D8C for those that would like to try a Shapton stone now. The GDLP is not a necessary component. Convenient, easy to use, well designed and a great all around performer? Certainly. But not essential.

Finally, I do find that lapping my Shaptons from 500 grit to 4000 grit prior to using them seems to make for better honing, more feedback. But I find that 6k, 8k, 16k work well without pre-lapping before each session. Especially the 16K. 20-50 laps on the 16K for an edge that's seen months of use without the 16K being lapped prior to use and ZINGO that edge is buttery smooth, sharp and ready for shave after comfortable shave again. Just my personal experience.

Chris L

I love this thread-it keeps growing. Personally, I'm not advocating anything. I was told information that was also in the Shapton Lapping Poll thread...I bought the Shapton Lapping plate-because I WANTED IT. Period. It is in fact designed for the system, but you can lap the plates with sandpaper- I did it-it worked, it was a pain in the A*&.

I'm not an authority. I'm a user. My 16K plate is no longer flat. It WAS when I bought it. I honed 15 razors max with the Shapton system. Now, my 16K hone needs to be lapped. And when I also checked my 8K plate with a machinist square-it could use a touch up too. So, I've learned many lessons in my life-penny wise and dollar foolish, I would like never to repeat. I could afford the Shapton plate and I purchased it from Straight Razor Designs. Simple. Can you use other methods, ABSOLUTELY.

Chris L, personally I own many hones- in fact I just purchased a vintage Escher Blue/green and a Vintage NOS Blue/Green Non-escher branded natural stone(if that makes sense). I couldn't care less about collector's value. I like to Shave with a Str8 and I like them stupid sharp-I don't care if I have to hone them every use. The hones are a means to get a good shave. I really don't care if they are flat to X micron. If they "appear" flat when I place a precision staightedge on the hone-FINE.Good enough for me.Is there a cheaper solution-apparently there is.

I'm only the messenger. I BELIEVE what I was told.I'm not complaining about Shapton quality control. I'm not trying to justify spending the money for the GDLP ( or whatever acronym you choose). I'm sure it will perform it tasks just fine.I'm not telling anyone it is the only thing that works. Frankly, I'm not budget minded- I'd rather not experiment and since I didn't already own a lapping plate- I bought the Shapton. I usually lapped on a granite surface plate with wet/dry.
Simple. Please don't infer that I advocate buying the Shapton because its the only soution. It isn't.

This is ADVANCED HONING-isn't it? Mega dollar japanese stones are discussed as well as other very expensive natural stones. Diamond paste, CrOx etc.. $$$$$ isn't exactly the deciding factor in all cases. If that was the case- even the DMT plate is a waste of money too. You could simply buy a marble floor tile and a sheet of sandpaper and have at it. Rant off.

Ha! Yeah, guitar manufacturers do the same thing; "Your brand new Gibson Les Paul Studio will come with state of the art Gibson strings designed to Les Paul's personal specifications, so that you, too, can achieve that signature Rock 'N Roll sound!!!!!!"

There's something to be said about doing things the right way and offering an entire system that provides anybody (regardless of previous experience) with the right tools to do an outstanding job is a good thing. So I appreciate everyone's sentiments about these stones. I think I'll be picking up at least the 16k with the next round of acquisitions to fill my HAD, it's good to know that they perform well as individual hones as well as part of "the system".

No problem, Lt. You and I enjoy the same things when it comes to stones, razors and shaving with straights. I lead off my post purposely with the statement that I know you were NOT advocating the GDLP as the end all be all for lapping Shaptons.

A lot of people follow these threads and I like the fact that guys are expanding into the Shaptons (I think they're great stones and fun to use) and that newer guys are buying them as well. I simply wanted to clarify for those, unlike you and I that don't have ANY Shaptons, that they don't need the GDLP for the Shaptons to be effective. That's all.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

Ha! Yeah, guitar manufacturers do the same thing; "Your brand new Gibson Les Paul Studio will come with state of the art Gibson strings designed to Les Paul's personal specifications, so that you, too, can achieve that signature Rock 'N Roll sound!!!!!!"

There's something to be said about doing things the right way and offering an entire system that provides anybody (regardless of previous experience) with the right tools to do an outstanding job is a good thing. So I appreciate everyone's sentiments about these stones. I think I'll be picking up at least the 16k with the next round of acquisitions to fill my HAD, it's good to know that they perform well as individual hones as well as part of "the system".

After playing the guitar for 35 years and owning far too many vintage and Historic Re-Issue Les Pauls-I use only one string brand. Pyramid. The Gibson wires hit the trash as soon as I could restring.

Originally Posted by Chris L

No problem, Lt. You and I enjoy the same things when it comes to stones, razors and shaving with straights. I lead off my post purposely with the statement that I know you were NOT advocating the GDLP as the end all be all for lapping Shaptons.

A lot of people follow these threads and I like the fact that guys are expanding into the Shaptons (I think they're great stones and fun to use) and that newer guys are buying them as well. I simply wanted to clarify for those, unlike you and I that don't have ANY Shaptons, that they don't need the GDLP for the Shaptons to be effective. That's all.

Chris L

Ditto for me regarding any finger pointing, unless it's at ChrisL.

I just get wound up a bit too tight when I see something like "I can't afford all this stuff at once so I guess I'll settle for the 16K and the GDLP and pick up the rest later" on these boards. The hones are great, the GDLP is too, unless you get one like ChrisL did. But for heavens sake, don't ever think that you must have the GDLP to make the hones work....... Spend your hard eared $$ wisely. Get a set of Shapton glass hones if you can afford it, and pick up a DMT D8C if the convenience of using it over sandpaper on a flat ground tile is worth it to you. (it sure as heck was to me, but an extra $225 or so to avoid stiction seemed a bit excessive).

Originally Posted by Chris L

For awhile, I was even on the ".001 flatness with your DMT plates? Ha, my .5 micron flatness and I both spit on you!" Ok, ok, maybe I wasn't THAT bad or, thankfully, I kept those thoughts at that time to myself.

Ahem.... me thinks a little bit of that slipped through..... in between the lines.


Regards

Kaptain "I guess it's all just "10-24 µm dust mite excreta" under the bridge now." Zero

Thanks for you post Chris. I am in the group that just wants to go a little further along the honing trail. I do not have HAD and probably never will because I just want to have a really good shaving experience and that is pretty much it. I think the 16K that I bought is a nice addition and helps me get one step above the basic pasted paddle strop experience. It does delivers a very controllable and pleasant outcome even on some of my harder 1/4 grind razors. I would encourage anyone to make the jump when they get to the point of wanting a little "more" from a shave.


Take Care,
Richard

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

When it comes to the use of a diamond lapping plate each and every time I go to hone a razor.... no thanks, I prefer to get full use out of my abrasives before grinding them off in a fruitless attempt at improving their honing ability.

The thing is, if you lap it before every use like I do with my synthetics, you only need a couple of laps to make it flat and clean.
You can wait until it is noticeably dished, but in the end you have to remove the same amount of material.

Lapping more often does not mean removing more material.

Originally Posted by kaptain_zero

I just get wound up a bit too tight when I see something like "I can't afford all this stuff at once so I guess I'll settle for the 16K and the GDLP and pick up the rest later" on these boards. The hones are great, the GDLP is too, unless you get one like ChrisL did. But for heavens sake, don't ever think that you must have the GDLP to make the hones work....... Spend your hard eared $$ wisely. Get a set of Shapton glass hones if you can afford it, and pick up a DMT D8C if the convenience of using it over sandpaper on a flat ground tile is worth it to you.

Just a word in my own defense:

My post (which started this whole thing) wasn't "I can't buy everything at once" at all. Nor was it a "Do I really need the DGLP." It was "is the D8XX too rough for a 16k? Do I have to get a D8C?"

(A question which Glen thankfully answered before the shooting began!)

I've had the Shaptons for some time -- I got them for my (Japanese) kitchen knives, well before I got into straights, and before there was a thing called a DGLP (or so I remember, anyway). When I got them, the common wisdom in the knife-sharpening community was that the best thing for lapping, including the Shapton glass stones, was the D8XX. But of course, very few folks use a 16k for knife sharpening. But those dig some striations into the stones, and since I'd never used the 16k, and am only really starting to learn to hone straights, it was a reasonable question, I think.

Anyhoo, just my two cents. I don't necessarily feel attacked, but I figured I'd clear that up.

cass

Originally Posted by Russel Baldridge

But what does the GDLP do that the D8C does not? As far as I can tell, it just has decreased stiction but isn't necessarily any flatter. And then there are DMTs that have recessed holes as well for about the same price as the diasharp series, I haven't tried them but the principle is the same.

The fact that it's part of the system means very little, flat is flat and if other methods will get you to the same end result, what's the difference?

And what's all this about the glass stones warping? I think I would consider that unacceptable if I were the manufacturer and was charging as much as they do for them, being as no other hone/stone out there warps.

End of mini-rant.

Glass, pro-what's the difference.
I've heard yea, and nay on warpage. to be honest i never checked it til the other day. I got out my 1000 and it was cupped over its length and fairly clean looking(?) so i lapped it on 400 atoma and put it away. 3 days later it was just as flat as when i finished lapping.

Politically speaking there is no advantage for Hap or Shap to recommend anything but their system. i
like having my own system formed with variety.

Cass, I wasn't pointing at you for sure! I just remember when I started out and found myself following the threads and starting to think I had to buy all this expensive stuff... back then the D8C was *expensive* enough! Not to mention all the other hones and stuff, and not knowing what was going to work the best for me so I feel for those reading the stuff we post but may not have started on the road to straight shaving.

And yes, the answer to your question is that probably the d8xx is a bit on the coarse side for the 8k and up Shaptons. I don't think it would hurt to have those striations but it wouldn't help either and if you're simply trying to clean the surface of the hone, it's pretty aggressive.

Christian