Thread: Verhoeven Paper Question

I agree with Kees completely. I think every one of us to a shaver would agree there stropping improves edges. Some may argue that stropping possibly only improves edges by removing any rust/oxidation at the edge level and doesn't improve the steel per se. I don't agree. Certainly stropping removes microscopic level rust/oxidation. But I think it's improving the edge. I think it's manipulating the steel. I keep my razors in a very dry environment and dry my razors very well after a shave and don't feel there is significant if any rusting going on at edge level of my razors between shaves. Stropping during shaves improves the edge; barbers have been doing that forever. Is the edge of a razor a barber is using actually rusting during the shave which results in the barber (or anyone else who strops mid-shave) feeling the edge has degraded and needs to be stropped? I think there's more going on there.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

I agree with Kees completely. I think every one of us to a shaver would agree there stropping improves edges. Some may argue that stropping possibly only improves edges by removing any rust/oxidation at the edge level and doesn't improve the steel per se. I don't agree. Certainly stropping removes microscopic level rust/oxidation. But I think it's improving the edge. I think it's manipulating the steel. I keep my razors in a very dry environment and dry my razors very well after a shave and don't feel there is significant if any rusting going on at edge level of my razors between shaves. Stropping during shaves improves the edge; barbers have been doing that forever. Is the edge of a razor a barber is using actually rusting during the shave which results in the barber (or anyone else who strops mid-shave) feeling the edge has degraded and needs to be stropped? I think there's more going on there.

Chris L

I only know that I can take a razor that doesn't cut hanging hair and do my 50/50 and then it does. Not always but a lot of the time.

Chris, down here in the tropical climate of FLA I have to be extra careful regarding rust. I have been in the midst of honing a razor and taken it over to the microscope and found rust beginning on the bevel that couldn't be seen with the naked eye. Not mine anyway. That is why I always strop a dozen on the horse after the shave and use a rust preventative after that. An ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

I only know that I can take a razor that doesn't cut hanging hair and do my 50/50 and then it does. Not always but a lot of the time.

I think it's the linen that's doing the work of sharpening the razor though. You'll notice that he also tested felt strops and they did sharpen the steel. He didn't test linen but I suspect they work similarly to the felt.

What I think the leather does is straighten the edge from the banging it gets on the rough linen. I agree with Verhoeven that the leather doesn't sharpen, though I suspect that after awhile it may get enough oxidized steel embedded in it that it may be abrasive. And it's possible that a heavy-drawing strop may be able to break off the oxide bloom from the edge, though I don't like heavy-drawing strops so I can only speculate wildly here...

Originally Posted by mparker762

I think it's the linen that's doing the work of sharpening the razor though. You'll notice that he also tested felt strops and they did sharpen the steel. He didn't test linen but I suspect they work similarly to the felt.

What I think the leather does is straighten the edge from the banging it gets on the rough linen. I agree with Verhoeven that the leather doesn't sharpen, though I suspect that after awhile it may get enough oxidized steel embedded in it that it may be abrasive. And it's possible that a heavy-drawing strop may be able to break off the oxide bloom from the edge, though I don't like heavy-drawing strops so I can only speculate wildly here...

It's been about a year and a half since I read the article. Did he conclude that plain unpasted wool felt (animal hair) actually sharpened the steel but leather, animal hide did not? Would your suspicion regarding cotton or linen plant fibers having steel sharpening potential be unpasted plain "linen" or pasted with something? That would seem odd to me that a plain unpasted plant fiber or animal hair could sharpen steel but leather could not.

Chris L

Originally Posted by Chris L

It's been about a year and a half since I read the article. Did he conclude that plain unpasted wool felt (animal hair) actually sharpened the steel but leather, animal hide did not? Would your suspicion regarding cotton or linen plant fibers having steel sharpening potential be unpasted plain "linen" or pasted with something? That would seem odd to me that a plain unpasted plant fiber or animal hair could sharpen steel but leather could not.

Yes, plain hard felt did sharpen the edge - this could be clearly seen under the microscope. He was stropping with the blade slightly inclined, so the felt produced a secondary bevel, but presumably had he not elevated the blade it would have slightly abraded the entire bevel. My belief is that the linen strop acts similarly, though I don't *know* this for a fact. I did an experiment once where I intentionally dulled a razor with cardboard, then brought it back to shaving condition by stropping on the linen. Either the strop is "drawing out" the steel or it's abrading the metal away. Verhoeven didn't find any "drawing out" effect in any of his stropping test (pasted, leather, or felt), so I'm inclined to believe abrasion is the most likely explanation. I don't know why hair/plant fibers are abrasive while leather isn't, that's just what he found.

Verhoeve was actually looking at leather to investigate the belief that leather stropping breaks off the burr caused by overhoning. This is how chisel and knife sharpeners tend to sharpen things - they sharpen till a burr is formed, then strop it off. But Verhoeven found that leather didn't even remove the burr, much less remove any steel along the bevel. But the felt strop did remove the burr and abraded the metal along the edge. There was a distinct difference in the abrasion patterns caused by the felt vs the pasted leather - the felt seemed to leave a rougher abrasion pattern, but IIRC it was a slower abrasive than the 0.5 chrome oxide (from what I recall from looking at his secondary bevels after similar # of laps).

Originally Posted by mparker762

Yes, plain hard felt did sharpen the edge - this could be clearly seen under the microscope. He was stropping with the blade slightly inclined, so the felt produced a secondary bevel, but presumably had he not elevated the blade it would have slightly abraded the entire bevel. My belief is that the linen strop acts similarly, though I don't *know* this for a fact. I did an experiment once where I intentionally dulled a razor with cardboard, then brought it back to shaving condition by stropping on the linen. Either the strop is "drawing out" the steel or it's abrading the metal away. Verhoeven didn't find any "drawing out" effect in any of his stropping test (pasted, leather, or felt), so I'm inclined to believe abrasion is the most likely explanation. I don't know why hair/plant fibers are abrasive while leather isn't, that's just what he found.

Verhoeve was actually looking at leather to investigate the belief that leather stropping breaks off the burr caused by overhoning. This is how chisel and knife sharpeners tend to sharpen things - they sharpen till a burr is formed, then strop it off. But Verhoeven found that leather didn't even remove the burr, much less remove any steel along the bevel. But the felt strop did remove the burr and abraded the metal along the edge. There was a distinct difference in the abrasion patterns caused by the felt vs the pasted leather - the felt seemed to leave a rougher abrasion pattern, but IIRC it was a slower abrasive than the 0.5 chrome oxide (from what I recall from looking at his secondary bevels after similar # of laps).

Could you point me to the phrases where Verhoeven talks about stropping on felt (other than on felt wheels loaded with abrasive compound), and to the parts where he compares felt to leather loaded with abrasives?
Could you also point me to the phrases where Verhoeven tested the "drawing out" effect and found nothing?

It seems that we are reading different documents, or at least a different version. The one I thought we were discussing is here:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf
and also here (same document):
http://mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www...nifeShExps.pdf

Thank you,
Bart.

Here's the man:
John Verhoeven

and his reputation.

Originally Posted by Bart

Could you point me to the phrases where Verhoeven talks about stropping on felt (other than on felt wheels loaded with abrasive compound), and to the parts where he compares felt to leather loaded with abrasives?
Could you also point me to the phrases where Verhoeven tested the "drawing out" effect and found nothing?

It seems that we are reading different documents, or at least a different version. The one I thought we were discussing is here:
http://www.bushcraftuk.com/downloads...nifeshexps.pdf
and also here (same document):
http://mse.iastate.edu/fileadmin/www...nifeShExps.pdf

Thank you,
Bart.

Hmm, we're talking about the same document. I just went back through it searching for "felt" and it appears that I was mistaken and he used the white bar on the felt and cloth in all experiments.

BTW I've used the white bar on my linen strops with success. It's a submicron tin oxide (some variant of Linde polish) and it works just fine. Just rub it on like a crayon. It seems to act like the Dovo white paste, and it wouldn't surprise me to discover that the Dovo stuff is just repackaged Linde paste. The white stick is available at any decent-sized hardware store for about $3, and it won't leave green stains like chrome oxide.

Verhoeven never specifically talked about any "drawing out" effect. But it doesn't show up in any of his photos, and he never mentions such a thing in the article that I recall (though I'm beginning to suspect my recollection). He did mention that the leather strop scratched the blades some (possibly dust on the leather), but otherwise had no effect.