Thread: What is the more important stone ???

I've seen a couple of threads recently on bevel setting and Glen linked this thread somewhere else so I think its time we resurrected this conversation!

What do you guys think is the more important stone? The bevel setter or the high end finisher?

Originally Posted by Stubear

What do you guys think is the more important stone? The bevel setter or the high end finisher?

I think it varies depending on the job to be done

Originally Posted by Stubear

I've seen a couple of threads recently on bevel setting and Glen linked this thread somewhere else so I think its time we resurrected this conversation!

What do you guys think is the more important stone? The bevel setter or the high end finisher?

Stubear,

I am not sure that I am qualified to respond, but it would seem to me to be important to divide this into process vs. actual stone.

So, I would ask what are the key characteristics that make a good bevel setter and can that operation be done on most any decent low grit stone?
If the answer is yes it can be, then I would say that it is an important process, but not an important stone.

Asking the same question about a finisher, what are the key characteristics of a good finisher and can that operation be done on any decent high grit stone? If the answer is yes it can be, then, again, I would say it is an important process, but not an important stone.

I think what might come out is that:

Bevel Setting Process is VERY important and can be done on a variety of just good low grit stones. So the process itself is very important.

Finishing Process is important and should be done on a very good stone. So the stone itself is very important.

Anyway - that is the way I'm thinking about it.

David

Since I started this thread I have been to 3 Meets and sat down with about 6 people one-on-one to help them hone...

If anything I now think even more that the low grit stones are the more important part of the process...

Lynn and I both at the 2009 Asheville Meet, and then myself at the Denver Meet, and the Spokane Meet, sat and honed razors one after another...
As each razor was presented they were accessed, then brought to a clean, even sharp, bevel... From that point on it really made no difference... At all three meets we were working Naniwa, Shapton, and Norton sets along with a plethora of Natural's...

Once the bevels are set you can take the razor up any ladder you want...
Most of the time on the hones was spent setting the bevel...

We all still might "Discuss" what finish is the best, but the one thing there is no argument about, is that the bevel has to be right before you can move forward...

Bevel, Bevel, Bevel.....

The most important part of sharpening a razor is the skill of the person using the hones/tools not the tool itself. While I do enjoy the honing journey my motto has always been "Get 'er done and get 'er done right!" In the hands of a honemister the quality of tool effects the time involved to get the end results. The end result of the bevel setter is to get the razor sharp. The end result of the finisher is to get the edge smooth. I want a razor that is both sharp and smooth. In terms of earned value, matching the bevel setter to the razor would save me the most time. Matching the finisher to the razor would get me a smoother shave and may tweak the sharpness. The rubber meets the road after the last hone used. The time it took to get there is determined by the first hone used. If you don't start with a good edge off the bevel setter the finisher isn't gonna get you there unless time, and lots of it, is not an issue.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Since I started this thread I have been to 3 Meets and sat down with about 6 people one-on-one to help them hone...

If anything I now think even more that the low grit stones are the more important part of the process...

Lynn and I both at the 2009 Asheville Meet, and then myself at the Denver Meet, and the Spokane Meet, sat and honed razors one after another...
As each razor was presented they were accessed, then brought to a clean, even sharp, bevel... From that point on it really made no difference... At all three meets we were working Naniwa, Shapton, and Norton sets along with a plethora of Natural's...

Once the bevels are set you can take the razor up any ladder you want...
Most of the time on the hones was spent setting the bevel...

We all still might "Discuss" what finish is the best, but the one thing there is no argument about, is that the bevel has to be right before you can move forward...

Bevel, Bevel, Bevel.....

Glen,

So would you say that you would invest more in your bevel setting hones than your finishers, or does it not matter that much which bevel setting hones you acquire as long as the bevel setting process is performed correctly and completely?

David

Originally Posted by Stubear

What do you guys think is the more important stone? The bevel setter or the high end finisher?

Well i dont have a really high end finisher just a naniwa 12k, and they're relativley cheep, so i'd have to say the bevel setter. For that i have a cheep 1k, i forget the name of it, and that does most of the work on the few razors i've done

ian

So for me as an apprentice/journeyman honist, I'm wondering a couple things.

First, what are all the marks or features of a good bevel? Here I mean it's physical characteristics, perhaps that could be observed in a 'scope (given all the cautions and conditions affecting legitimate use of optics, of course!)

Second, what are the tests that show you the bevel is well set?

Third, if I'm shaving with a razor, how might I detect from using it that the bevel is the problem and not the finishing?

I already know some answers to these questions, but it would be great to have a kind of master-list because sometimes a given blade might, for mysterious reasons, work with some tests better than others.

For me, if I'm concerned about the edge, I use either the Norton 220 or DMT 325 to get to decent metal. Then, or if the edge doesn't seem damaged or compromised, I usually go straight to the DMT 1200 with circles and X strokes. I haven't tried the Norton 1K with slurry, but I"m thinking that might be worth a try.

Early on I use the TNT to make sure the edge bites all down its length. I use the TPT to see if the edge is getting better quickly or slowly (I call it the "tickle test"). But as my "next stone" flag, I go for shaving leg hair at skin level. I want one WTG swipe and a slick bald spot left behind.

As a beginner, I'd be interested in knowing if that process would ever lead me astray or if I'm barking up the wrong tree in some way here.

Love this thread!

Originally Posted by Alembic

Glen,

So would you say that you would invest more in your bevel setting hones than your finishers, or does it not matter that much which bevel setting hones you acquire as long as the bevel setting process is performed correctly and completely?

David

I'm not Glen, but this brings up something I have always found interesting about this topic. A person with HAD could buy one of each: Naniwa 220, 400,1000,2000 and Shapton 220,500,1000, 2000 or one Shapton 30K. The cash expenditure would be roughly the same.

Looking at it that way there's no reason not to have a pretty deep bench of low grit hones if the ratio of dollars spent to edge quality received means anything. I'm not suggesting that you need a whole pile of bevel setters (or do you Glen ?), just that its not very productive to ignore them in favor of the high dollar finishing stones. This assumes that you are doing more than just touching up formerly shave ready razors.

Originally Posted by Bill S

I'm not Glen, but this brings up something I have always found interesting about this topic. A person with HAD could buy one of each: Naniwa 220, 400,1000,2000 and Shapton 220,500,1000, 2000 or one Shapton 30K. The cash expenditure would be roughly the same.

Looking at it that way there's no reason not to have a pretty deep bench of low grit hones if the ratio of dollars spent to edge quality received means anything. I'm not suggesting that you need a whole pile of bevel setters (or do you Glen ?), just that its not very productive to ignore them in favor of the high dollar finishing stones. This assumes that you are doing more than just touching up formerly shave ready razors.

I like the way you put that Bill...

Keep in mind this whole thread started as an observation that we all waste tons on money and time typing about our finest finshers... When really most of the time, and skill, and effort, is spent below 2k (Obviously not on New/NOS razors)

But we don't find these workhorses sexy, and fun to talk about, about the only thing that really gets discussed is "How fast it cuts metal"

Most of us barely ever do more than 2 minutes work on a finisher, yet we devote pages of love poems to our Japanese Naturals, Coticules, Eschers
Charnley Forest & Shapton 30k's and ... and.. and...

Yet the hours of fixing that bevel to get it there are barely a footnote, that is what I wrote this thread about originally.. Not whether you should go buy more stones...

Yes I own quite a few bevel setters and I use them all, but I don't NEED them all, just like I don't NEED anything other than a Norton 8k to get a comfortable shaving edge...