Thread: Reasons I feel hones have to be sedimentary

Originally Posted by commiecat

But what if that sediment is a result of the pure water causing erosion?

Boy, now I want to go watch Planet Earth again.

It is, to an extent.. water(no matter how pure or dirty) dissolves the bonding materials of rock over time, this causes small particles to fall out of the main rock face.. This is your sediment, which as it tumbles downstream causes more erosion.

Water, over time is a very powerful force and while wind can cause erosion over time water is the main agent of erosion on this planet. The deal with the Grand canyon is that the colorado river has carved out what you see however that is complicated by uplift which has been going on which also contributes to it. If you take granite for example it's mostly made of quartz, feldspar and mica. (There are actually several different types of granite) The mica goes first turning into basically mud and that's carried away by water mostly. That leaves cracks and pits and water gets in and from freezing and/or water the feldspar goes next and by then there is just the quartz which turns to sand and that gets carried away.

As far as sedimentary rocks being glued together some do have another mineral or combinations of minerals which hold it together but oftentimes its the pressure over time that just compresses it and there is no glue. In certain areas you will see rock strata that is not actually rock yet it still very soft and is in the process of becoming a sedimentary rock. Maybe in a few million years or so that's what you will have.

Clear as mud? har har.

Originally Posted by McWolf1969

Hey Khaos,
How would you explain, for example...my Surgical Black Arkansas and my Translucent Arkansas, are both lapped on a series 400/1000 grit diamond plate, yet both perform significantly different from each other?

Thanks,

Mac

While Arkansas as a general group falls into a certain rock type category, the different ones have different compositions. I'll talk about granite as that was already mentioned, so it can be more solid of an example. All granite is defined as metamorphic rock composed of quartz, mica and feldspar. That amazing black granite you see in countertops is mostly mica. The pink kind, mostly feldspar. When you pick up a hunk of granite, you can see the different crystals/particles of feldspar, mica, and quartz. Granite is not a chemical formula, or an exact ratio x quartz y mica z feldspar. Its simply a mixed rock.

This is true of arkansas. While translucent and black arkansas are classified the same (novaculite), they have different MINERAL PROPERTIES. Therefore the particles contained within are different and thus create different sharpening properties...

Also, recondsider your argument please. If you lapped a Shapton set with the DGLP, they still have different grits right? Because the particles bound by the cement are different sizes. With a block of say, jade, the rock is a single crystal. Not a lot of crystals bonded together. Therefore you have to texture the surface of the jade to different roughnesses to get different grits.

From another thread, and written by someone else, not me: (http://straightrazorpalace.com/newre...reply&p=435290)

Originally Posted by yuzuha

Chert is what glues most sandstones and even arkansas stones together. It is basically quartz/silica, the same as agate, jasper, quartzite, opal,flint or novaculite etc. Silica is partially soluble in warm alkaline water and forms flocculant precipitates when the pH goes down. Hydrothermal action often partially dissolves sand (quartzite and sandstone), diatomacious earth (novaculite) and reprecipitates between the grains cementing them together, or silica laden waters dissolve and replace grains of carbonate or other mineral or form a dense cement around impurities (flint, jasper or agate etc). It varies like novaculite... the black stuff is full of manganese dioxide and dense chert cement around heavily dissolved diatom shells (which come in nearly every shape from little 5 micron balls to 200 micron long rods)... in the coarser novaculite stones the shells just less dissolved and not as heavily cemented together.

So you can see once again, Arkansas stone is EXACTLY what I am claiming- cemented cutting particles...
(Granite though is not, it falls into the "solid" category because each grain in the granite is a solid crystal. I just used it to describe how rocks (mixtures) are different from minerals (pure forms) because I think basically everyone in the world knows granite)

Originally Posted by khaos

While Arkansas as a general group falls into a certain rock type category, the different ones have different compositions. I'll talk about granite as that was already mentioned, so it can be more solid of an example. All granite is defined as metamorphic rock composed of quartz, mica and feldspar. That amazing black granite you see in countertops is mostly mica. The pink kind, mostly feldspar. When you pick up a hunk of granite, you can see the different crystals/particles of feldspar, mica, and quartz. Granite is not a chemical formula, or an exact ratio x quartz y mica z feldspar. Its simply a mixed rock.

This is true of arkansas. While translucent and black arkansas are classified the same (novaculite), they have different MINERAL PROPERTIES. Therefore the particles contained within are different and thus create different sharpening properties...

Also, recondsider your argument please. If you lapped a Shapton set with the DGLP, they still have different grits right? Because the particles bound by the cement are different sizes. With a block of say, jade, the rock is a single crystal. Not a lot of crystals bonded together. Therefore you have to texture the surface of the jade to different roughnesses to get different grits.

I would not have commented but for the fact you had the word "ALL" would have to be sedimentary. If you take a massive mineral or rock and cut it and polish it into a block, on a structural level of the silicates of what ever metals they are or are not attached to, there is the possiblity that the surface will fracture in various ways, possibly forming a functional hone. the erroded dull surface harder than steel would hone.This fracturing induced mechanically or chemically depending on the mineral.
Another possiblity are the carbides in the metal ever so slowly form microscopic striations in the metal and in effect form an abrasive surface that way. These are just academic possibilities,IMHO.
By the way, this was a great thread. I am entertaining the idea to show it to my Advanced Chemistry students to demonstrate how intelligent and fertile minds enjoy learning and also the creative process in action. Good stuff and loved Howard's Geological input. Wonderful stuff.
Mike

Kingfish- your points seem mostly valid and well based. First off, I cannot edit the title of this thread, but I have acknowledged a few times that I was wrong when I said all. Perhaps "typically more efficient" or "most".

As to your other argument, let me propose this to you. If I have a slab of metal, (has to be rough) like a steel file, and a slab or rock (with some roughness to it) and I rub them together, if the rock is harder than the steel, it will chew the steel up with very little damage to the rock, and vice versa. Take a steel file to gypsum (dry wall/wallboard), and it'll be gone in no time, and the file will come out barely touched. Now take the steel file to a Diamond sharpner, and see what happens. The steel will be marred and ground away but the diamonds will be unscathed. (they may dislodge, but this is because they are bonded to a surface. Perhaps it would be better to imagine a 10x10x10 block of diamond) So while there is *some* counter-abrasion, I feel it would be negligable unless one found a rock very very close in hardness to the steel of the razor (and since razors vary in hardness, something that may just be hard enough on one razor, may be just not hard enough on another...)

For example, you mentioned silicates, like quartz and glass. it may be true that it fractures quite well (it is brittle) but try taking a quartz crystal and scratching a blade. I believe it will gouge the blade very easily, without damaging the point of the crystal much. So... on an edge that is roughly .5 micron thick (I read a post where gssixgun claimed something like this, though I am not going to state it as solid fact, but one must accept that there is a finite achievable thickness to an edge), the action of the solid silicate crystal in question is surely is more likely to abrade the steel than vice versa. We can see this in Thuringen hones, which I believe use silicates as an abrasive particle (quartz or quartzite or something like that).

Another problem with the chipping theory is I *believe* correct me if I'm wrong, there is no reason for it to "chip" at any certain particle size. If you drop a rock it will shatter into some large pieces, a few smaller chips, lots of grain, and produce a fair amount of dust. If there is an inherent crystal growth (garnet in Cot.) or sedimentary deposit (as in Novaculite) I *believe* that would be consistent to some degree and result in the inherent cutting properties like grit and speed.

Disclaimer: I am doing this from memory late at night, if someone would like to correct a fact please go ahead, I will try and find citations sometime though.

So while I highly doubt that solid hones will have an inherent grit based on break down, I believe they can act as a hone of the grit they are given. THIS DOES NOT MEAN WHAT THEY ARE LAPPED ON. It would have to be determined experimentally.

I feel like when you get to natural stones grit is very hard to determine IN ALL CASES, because as someone displayed with chalk, pressure can result in different EFFECTIVE grits, no matter the ACTUAL grit of the surface used- he rubbed chalk on a sidewalk hard, then on the same patch of sidewalk lightly and demonstrated heavy, deep scratching and a smoother finish.

This thread was not about the possibilities of hones, more the most efficient types of rock for hones. If I had enough time and talc I'm sure I could eventually sharpen a razor on it, much like erosion, but I don't think I'll make a mil selling talc hones anytime soon....

My arguments were "academic" at best. Maybe you did not catch that. The real reason I wanted to bump is cause I thought there was such a wealth of info in here I am planning a class dicussion with some of the posts. It had lot of thought and science in it and how adults with open minds work together to solve problems.
Mike

Originally Posted by khaos

If I had enough time and talc I'm sure I could eventually sharpen a razor on it, much like erosion, but I don't think I'll make a mil selling talc hones anytime soon....

Make one that cuts fast and lasts and you just might.

Black granite is usually diorite (black with white), diabase or gabbro (often totally black) and not granite, and while there black flakes in ordinary granite which are biotite mica, many of the black crystals are schorl (black tourmaline), the black color of gabbro is mostly hornblende. You'll also find gneisses and migmitites, which are granites to gabbros that have been partially melted and may have separated into layers through partial recrystalization, and often show signs of being squeezed into folds like toothpaste.

Jade of the nephrite variety is a massive agglomeration of small interlocking, intergrown actinolite crystals. Jadite is made of interlocking fiberous crystals that cling together so well the bulk material is stronger than steel.

Originally Posted by yuzuha

Black granite is usually diorite (black with white), diabase or gabbro (often totally black) and not granite, and while there black flakes in ordinary granite which are biotite mica, many of the black crystals are schorl (black tourmaline), the black color of gabbro is mostly hornblende. You'll also find gneisses and migmitites, which are granites to gabbros that have been partially melted and may have separated into layers through partial recrystalization, and often show signs of being squeezed into folds like toothpaste.

For like the 10th time I realise that the examples I use aren't perfect and are simplified! I'm just pointing it out to illustrate a point.
Also, Gneiss I know is metamorphic and therefore not technically the same as granite (igneous) correct?

Originally Posted by yuzuha

Jade of the nephrite variety is a massive agglomeration of small interlocking, intergrown actinolite crystals. Jadite is made of interlocking fiberous crystals that cling together so well the bulk material is stronger than steel.

Is this just a fact, a contradiciton, or support? I view it as support, because if the interlocking crystals are harder than steel, steel would not break them down, and there would be no underlying "grit" other than the roughness that a sample were given. Please elaborate...