Thread: Reasons I feel hones have to be sedimentary

That's roughly what we were talking about with fourier series approzimations of a straight line. The problem with macroscopic grooves is the edge may dive into them and remove too much material- the smaller the grit the less likely you'll cause an error. I believe in an earlier post it was brought up by myself or another, I can't quite remember, that in theory if one had a perfectly engineered hone, you could have a like, 200 grit hone that could leave a perfectly straight edge. But then you increase the odds of making a mistake, and that mistake will be much bigger due to the higher grit. Someone somewhere proved that one could do various levels of sharpening on one stone by varying pressure- so why do we need multiple grits? As a failsafe. Its easier for us as humans to change our tools than our technique I feel.

I believe it comes to the size of the grooves. I don't think its possible to achieve a mirror polish with larger grit sizes regardless of technique. The smaller the grit the smaller the grooves and thus the sharper the edge. Close enough all edges are serrated and by cutting across them you leave a dull edge the same size as the grit. I just thought of that right now.

In theory if you engineered the profile of each stone individually every time you lapped it you could get a mirror polish off of a 1k. IN THEORY. That would involve WAY more effort and be WAY more expensive than just using different grits. But yes. Thats what we were talking about, scratch depth/width/serration.

Well the only way you could get a mirror finish with a 1k would be by arranging the slots or grooves created in perfect configuration so light would bounce of properly but the edge would still be a 1k edge. Thats also the reason some stones leave better finish than others. I still think theres something to having a stroke go with the edge instead of against it. I remember seeing a video somewhere in which a japanese straight was being honed in that manner. just to close off, I too think that hones need to be sedimentary other wise you are just not removing metal maybe bending it but not refining or removing at all.

I don't know.... A mill file has no trouble removing metal, nor does a sen. Seems that it only matters that the angle and pressure of the cutting tool(s) are sufficient to cut into the material.

whats a sen and a mill file? are they texturized?

A sen is a Japanese draw knive that is like a cross handle that holds a hardened steel cutter that resembles a tiny chisel. They are used to cut the fullers (often wrongly called "blood grooves") in knives and swords and to shape the ends of Japanese plane blades and chisels. A mill file is a common, single cut file with grooves going in one direction (usually diagonally along the length)... you pull it sideways along a hunk of metal and the grooves act like little diagonal snow plows and shave off bits of swarf.

I wanted to post a vdo clip of a filemaker at work to punctuate my point that there is more to a file than simply cutting grooves in a bar of steel. But I could not find it! My main point of contention with the stone file concept is how to make?

Certainly not with the methods and tools we use for lapping.

Further, files are directional. Either push or pull- they don't do both. Neither do they work parallel to the tooth. This will limit the numbers and styles of strokes you can perform.

I have seen some fairly coarse particle estimates for Arkansas stones. But I have wondered in over time they do not act somewhat finer after they acquire some glazing. Continual rounding/smoothing of abr. grit to a glazed/clogged condition is hardly my ideal medium. So I have considered that there mat be something to this texture idea.

With texturing, etching or ? how does one also create a plane surface.

How often would we then need to repeat this difficult task after the stone glazed?

I've left out some thoughts hoping you can fill in the spaces.

On one hand we might consider that almost anything would work if we have enough determination. The old saying Iron sharpens iron comes to mind. On the other, there were natural processes acting so perfectly in producing those rocks we call hones, whetstones and tennen toishi isn't it just better to use the ones with centuries of proof?

You would; my guess, accomplish more with years of practice on a randomly fine awwasdo at 30-40k+ using a well orchestrated variety of strokes to balance the natural occuring errors of human movement than a equilivant time engineering whatever is is you're talking about

If you really want to decrease the edge dimension significantly you will have to leave hand honing behind and shoot well aimed ions.

fwiw The easiest way to produce a mirror on 1k is to polish like mad in the steely swarf.

Originally Posted by kevint

fwiw The easiest way to produce a mirror on 1k is to polish like mad in the steely swarf.

I read an artcle on superpolishing automotive shafts once.... Basically what they do is have the shaft on a lathe and a motorized grinding wheel on the tool post (all computer controlled of course) and the key to it is the pressure and viscosity of the lubricant. It forms a fluid bearing between the shaft and grinding wheel and only allows contact between the tips of the grit particles of the wheel and the remaining peaks on the shaft.

Originally Posted by kevint

I have seen some fairly coarse particle estimates for Arkansas stones. But I have wondered in over time they do not act somewhat finer after they acquire some glazing. Continual rounding/smoothing of abr. grit to a glazed/clogged condition is hardly my ideal medium. So I have considered that there mat be something to this texture idea.

With texturing, etching or ? how does one also create a plane surface.

How often would we then need to repeat this difficult task after the stone glazed?

I've left out some thoughts hoping you can fill in the spaces.

On one hand we might consider that almost anything would work if we have enough determination.

This is EXACTLY what I was thinking when I started this thread. That stones harder than steel (as in the whole thing, not cutting particles) CAN work, but are a pain because of the texturing. Lets say you start with a 1k "solid" hone. How will you get it there? IF it wears after a long time, how do you refresh it? etc etc. If it glazes, how do you clean it? With the bonded abrasives, its easy, you just lap it.