Thread: Harrelson's Shapton breadknife trick on Naniwas

Originally Posted by kevint

fwiw harrelson also has a kitchen knife sharpening dvd,

Tangent on Ben. sorry but I bet this topic is near talked out,

what are the differences between joining and jointing

There is MUCH more to knife sharpening than just getting a sharp edge. There are matters of edge geometry, what finish allows for food to not stick to the surface of the knife, and many other things. I feel that if I asked Harrelson what stone I should use for task x or task y, he would invariably respond that I need a shapton... but there are some things that shaptons do NOT excel at. Shapton stones leave a very bright polish, which is not good for some situations. For example, consider this photo:



See the wavy line at the edge? A shapton would make that whole bevel a shiny mirror, whereas the matte surface higher up the bevel allows for better food release. Try a King 800 or 1200 on something like this, then try a shapton. Big difference. I know Dave Martell knows these things inside and out, and so I turn to him for my knife sharpening knowledge.
I've never seen Harrelsons knife sharpening video, so i can't comment there, I guess.


As far as Jointing vs Joining, there is a difference.

As you have a picture of a nice japanese chisel as your avatar, I'm sure you've tried your hand at a dovetail joint. Or a half-lap, mortise and tenon, butt, finger, rabbet, or any other number of joints. Joinery, or joining, is the fitting together of two or more pieces of wood or some other material by way of these joints.

A picture of nice joinery:



Jointing, on the other hand, is the flattening and truing of a board. For example, think of an edge grain cutting board (not butcherblock). Here's a pic:



This board is made up of alternating pieces of maple (the lighter wood) and walnut. each piece of maple and walnut has to have a very straight and flat face to glue up well with the next piece.

Making the pieces square, straight, and true is jointing. Connecting the pieces together with glue and pressure is joining. (Not all joinery needs glue and pressure, however.)

Thanks for your reply. I have had some experience with the practice of carpentry and cabinet/furniture making, machine and hand.

The short introductory Chapter 14: Jointing techniques and methods of Joyce's Encyclopedia of Furniture Making reads: "The techniques of jointing sections of wood to form rigid self-supporting and permanent structures have evolved through many centuries to accommodate the natural movement of wood, and can rarely be improved upon."

Your definition would require the use of the term joining in this context.

page 151 is titled Jointing/Joining Methods. The / means the terms are interchangeable. He does use the term "joint" to refer to specific connections but he could have easily referred to them as "join"

The aspects which you refer to as "jointing" are called planing, surfacing, truing, squaring and edging in his text. which is not to say you are incorrect to refer to it as jointing, but you could also say joining, join, as well as use more specific terms as he did.

The book is not the end all and be all, I know. I had hoped to find earlier examples but could not locate the books where I have read similar usage.

I am a semanticist i guess, the meaning and importance of words is very intriguing to me. The simple fact is though the terms are interchangeable, one may refer to a dovetail join and be correct, even though the most common term is joint.

----Of course edge geometry is a very fun topic as well. It is important to all edged tools. The chisel in my avatar has a rounded bevel geometry for chopping mortises in oak plane bodies.

I have seen neither video, but I agree with a chuckle the answer must be :Shapton.

I have heard through hearsay that Howard said harrelson produced the sharpest razor he has seen.... something like that.

since you went to the trouble to find pics to illustrate I made a quick test between shap 1000 and king 1200 to pay back your time. They look a lot the same. It was quick and the king wasnt soaked to i poured water while polishing. it is soaking now.

Semantics is exactly the issue then. While join and joint are obviously extremely closely related as far as etymology goes, colloquial use is different. I don't know that I've ever met anyone who talks about joints and refers to them as joins. In all of my woodworking magazines and catalogs I've never seen one of these referred to as a "joiner":



As far as hand tools go, I've never seen a jointer plane referred to as a join plane.

So perhaps the two may be interchangeable, I don't know anyone who uses them that way. Maybe my world is smaller than the next guys.

I think on this we can either agree that yes they are interchangeable in an almost encyclopedic usage of the two words, or that no they aren't interchangeable since no one uses it that way. Or we can disagree, or I just might be flat out wrong.

An admittedly extreme comparison is that the word swastika comes from sanskrit meaning "to be good", but today it means (for the most part) "Nazi". So while someone *could* drive around with greepeace, christian, and PETA bumperstickers AND a swastika, it wouldn't make sense today, although etymologically sound.

As far as the king vs. shapton test , make sure that you are doing it on a laminated blade where you are polishing the hagane and jigane. The shapton will mirror the jigane whereas the king leaves a better "kasumi" haze finish. It's not a natural stone kasumi, but mucho bettero than the shapton.

gol_dang he played the nazee card

The cultures that use swastika- in the pre-nazi way- are perfectly clear in their understanding of what it means.

I do not typically use the term join in carpentry except to say "join us for a beer." But then neither do I use the word timber to describe, lumber, boards, beams et al except when the wood is living in a forest- but english speakers do that every day. Biscuit joiner/jointer
.... I always wondered what specific effect; the cause of Kings doing that. To me it is more akin to acid etching- very gray. I think it looks kinda cool.

Originally Posted by kevint

gol_dang he played the nazee card

like I said, it was extreme.... Godwin's Law necessitates it though! But seriously, it was the first thing that jumped to mind when old usage vs. new usage was the subject.

Before the wars, we used to salute the american flag the same way nazis did the whole "heil Hitler" thing. It only changed after the war when we got our "Pledge of Allegiance" Our once patriotic salute is now not very patriotic at all.