Thread: Scratches on the bevel

I personally do not use optics as my primary means
of assessing an edge, so I will only feel sharpness --
if there are still scratches I'm oblivious!

- Scott

I have to agree that if the edge feels sharp and shaves well, then why worry about scratches on the bevel? On the other hand though, it seems to me if the bevel is crisp and shiny then that smoothness should logically follow itelf all the way to the edge, producing a much smoother finish, and a much smoother shave. If the bevel shows scratches, are you suggesting they stop just before they reach the edge, and the edge is smooth anyway? Just asking.


Ray

Originally Posted by rayman

I have to agree that if the edge feels sharp and shaves well, then why worry about scratches on the bevel? On the other hand though, it seems to me if the bevel is crisp and shiny then that smoothness should logically follow itelf all the way to the edge,

sorry to say smoothness or sharpness has nothing to do how your bevel look like

producing a much smoother finish, and a much smoother shave. If the bevel shows scratches, are you suggesting they stop just before they reach the edge,

No they don''t but edge cold be smooth anyway depends on the grit of the stone

and the edge is smooth anyway? Just asking.

i fully understand and asking is ok this is how we learn

Ray

It is ok to ask and learn i always do it myself

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

It is ok to ask and learn i always do it myself

I must admit those are some interesting concepts you are proposing. My understanding of this honing process has always been a little different than that though.

It has been my assumption that we generally start honing at the 1k level to produce a bevel for the base, then go to the following: 4k, 8k, 12k, 16k, finishing stone, .5 paste, maybe .25 past = 60k, then linen, and finally strop. Each step leaves a different looking bevel and edge. All the way to the linnen, the bevel shows a finer and finer scratch pattern. It has been my belief that these scratches are a result of, and not a byproduct of the work done by the stones. At this point the smoothness of the edge should look much finer under a scope. When we go the linen and then the strop I always thought the purpose of that was to smooth out the final peaks in those scratches to produce the finest edge possible, thus if the bevel looks polished, as opposed to scratchy, and without the use of a loop or scope, I would expect that edge to be smoother as well since the smoothness should continue out to it.

I still have to give some more thought to your position though.

Ray

Originally Posted by rayman

I must admit those are some interesting concepts you are proposing. My understanding of this honing process has always been a little different than that though.

It has been my assumption that we generally start honing at the 1k level to produce a bevel for the base, then go to the following: 4k, 8k, 12k, 16k, finishing stone, .5 paste, maybe .25 past = 60k, then linen, and finally strop. Each step leaves a different looking bevel and edge. All the way to the linnen, the bevel shows a finer and finer scratch pattern. It has been my belief that these scratches are a result of, and not a byproduct of the work done by the stones. At this point the smoothness of the edge should look much finer under a scope. When we go the linen and then the strop I always thought the purpose of that was to smooth out the final peaks in those scratches to produce the finest edge possible, thus if the bevel looks polished, as opposed to scratchy, and without the use of a loop or scope, I would expect that edge to be smoother as well since the smoothness should continue out to it.

I still have to give some more thought to your position though.

Ray

Ray This is short example .
Someone takes blade to 1 k and sets the bevel. Next that person goes to sandpaper and just polishes that bevel( not sharpening not edge forward movement . just take sandpaper from 1k to 3k level and polish the bevel not touching the edge.
Now your bevel will be the shines bevel out there but same razor will not cut hair doesn't matter how much force you will use.
By saying this i am trying to make it simple .if you want me to explain more i will be gladly do so.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Ray This is short example .
Someone takes blade to 1 k and sets the bevel. Next that person goes to sandpaper and just polishes that bevel( not sharpening not edge forward movement . just take sandpaper from 1k to 3k level and polish the bevel not touching the edge.
Now your bevel will be the shines bevel out there but same razor will not cut hair doesn't matter how much force you will use.
By saying this i am trying to make it simple .if you want me to explain more i will be gladly do so.

No, there is no need for you to elaborate on your position. You have explained yourself very well.

Thank you,

Ray

I said this in another thread too, but off the hones my bevels look like mirrors, I DO NOT try for this they just do.... I do not concern myself if there is a tiny scratch here either, I never use more than a 40x loupe to check an edge, I don't use a loupe until after the linen, as this will show any micro-chipping very fast....
After 100 laps of leather there are always little scratches on the bevel....

Maybe we are talking about something different when it comes to scratches???????

Originally Posted by rayman

It has been my assumption that we generally start honing at the 1k level to produce a bevel for the base, then go to the following: 4k, 8k, 12k, 16k, finishing stone, .5 paste, maybe .25 past = 60k, then linen, and finally strop.
Ray

That's a lot of stuff. It makes me wonder if there should be an Advanced Stropping forum.

Tonight I forgot to strop/ got distracted watching Davide kick the ass of a hot iranian agent on NCIS rerun. The less shiny than 8k coticule still gave a remarkable shave. I hope i remember not to strop to see how many it will give.

Originally Posted by kevint

That's a lot of stuff. It makes me wonder if there should be an Advanced Stropping forum.

Tonight I forgot to strop/ got distracted watching Davide kick the ass of a hot iranian agent on NCIS rerun. The less shiny than 8k coticule still gave a remarkable shave. I hope i remember not to strop to see how many it will give.

I should have indicated that each of these steps were available for use, but not all of them are necessarily used at once. Each blade seems to require a different combination to arrive at the final product. So no, I don't use all of these for each blade. Sorry I didn't clarify this at the time I wrote it.

Ray

Its a very good question. Any testing that I have done has not indicated much of a need for concern over striations or polish.

I may have noted, several years ago, that when shaving off 4K that the striational pattern did matter, but I've forgotten now.

I think, therefore, it might matter if your using a low grit hone. But again, I don't really remember.

One time, and only one time, I produced an edge far superior to any I've ever produced since. At that moment I used a tad of pressure and moved one side of an edge back and forth in exact alignment, then flipped the razor and did the same on the other side. I have never been able to replicate that edge, or even a better edge with the same process. It was probably some other fact (like stropping?) that created that edge.

The only possible idea that a good polish is a good thing is that I know that some references say that a good stropping should look like a slight shadow on the edge. Therefore the greater the polish to more likely you'd be able to actually see good stropping.

I will have to admit though that many of my razors are well polished, but none are such great shavers that I'm convinced I have nothing left to learn.