Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks for the excellent post Bart. I have experienced the flutter too.

Your mention of purposely dulling a sharp edge brings to mind the practice of some DE shavers of 'corking' Feather blades to take a bit of the edge off. (no pun intended)

Having noticed that they were frequently smoother on the second shave the idea of running them lightly over a piece of cork is practiced by some guys.

For me Jimmy,There is a learning curve shaving with the blades finished like this. It is a real light touch and a little less scything. But light touch is the biggest difference.
Mike

Day 3:

Not really much different than Day 2 or 1......So it's obviously holding up. I stropped on linen and leather (well, vegan leather ) before-hand. It left my face a little raw, but I just washed my face instead of showering, so my beard-prep wasn't as good tonight. Nothing too exciting, it shaved well and is still really sharp! I really don't think it's a better shave than a usually sharpened edge finished up to a high grit, at least I really don't notice that much of a difference.

If it holds up for a while, that would be good. It seems that the jury is still out as to whether a microbevel will make the edge last longer or shorter, and all I can tell you is that it lasts for a least 3 days for the 1 razor I've tried it on. My conclusion: I have NO idea how long it'll last. I'm just a test dummy.

My entry into this "study" will remain incomplete for now, but in the mail came an Engstrom frameback, a rather thin specimen with the brass frame cylinder. I spent about 2 hours cleaning it and polishing it (with a new technique I shall share elsewhere), then spent another 2 hours honing it. I could have sped up the process with pressure, but I wanted to remain diligent about using little/no pressure until ALL the micro chips were gone.
Removed chips on 325 grit, set bevel on 1k, sharpened on 6k, polished on 12k, added tape, repolished on 12k with 15 laps. Wouldn't break hair so I had to strop, now it splits hairs silently like a nice frameback should in all but one spot (er, um, I'm relatively new at this?).
I'm going to wait a few days more before shaving due to a nasty cut, I might just rehone this thing anyway to fix that one little spot...
The double bevel (bubble devil) is quite striking under light to the naked eye. Looking forward to the shave...

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Thanks for the excellent post Bart. I have experienced the flutter too.

Thanks for sharing that, Jimmy. I knew I couldn't be the only with that observation, although it still remains a hunch to what's actually happening. It's always on blades that have a somewhat wider bevel, and creating a narrow secondary bevel has always turned out a good workaround.
Note that I can also get such edges shaveready without introducing using the double bevel "solution". A few laps on a pasted strop quickly deals with the situation, but for reasons that would bring us way too far off topic, I always aim to avoid paste.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Your mention of purposely dulling a sharp edge brings to mind the practice of some DE shavers of 'corking' Feather blades to take a bit of the edge off. (no pun intended)

Having noticed that they were frequently smoother on the second shave the idea of running them lightly over a piece of cork is practiced by some guys.

Amazing. I only mentioned it, because I believe that a ultra keen "deteriorated by use" edge can fall further back than and a slightly less keen edge that holds up a bit better. That is something very noticeable on a blade of a woodworking hand plane. A highly refined, single bevelled edge on such a blade will cut wood like no tomorrow, but it's literally "no tomorrow". Within very short time such a blade falls back to a level below par. The same blade, but with a very steep secondary bevel (much steeper than we're talking about on razors) will require a tad more force to produce nice wood shavings, but it will still be on that level, long after the ultra-sharp blade has fallen back to a much less keen level. That is because the latter carries a stronger secondary bevel, but also because of the fact the the dulling of a sharp but weak edge does not produce a very slightly less sharp but stronger edge. I have no idea if any if this relates to razors. I'm not in the ultra-sharp shaving part of town. You guys have my utmost respect, but my skin already protests when I squeeze the best out my Chosera 10K. (weepers and stuff) Most likely because I'm used to shaving with a heavier hand than good when using a "feather"-sharp edge.

As a final note: comparing 2 edges at the same level of keenness, with a bevel angle difference introduced by one or two layers of tape, the jury will never reach a verdict on edge retention. The difference will be insignificant.
Pasted edges are in shape closely related to double bevel edges. They only make a sloping curve to their final bevel angle at the very edge, while the double bevel makes the change at once. Pasting is effective, for the one reason that it allows a very fine abrassive to concentrate primarily at a small region near the very edge. In essence what you guys are doing in this study with a layer of tape achieves the same goal with different means.

Bart.

3rd shave:

I stropped very little before this one - just 12 light strokes to drag off any microscopic oxidation. After that, I lathered up and had one of the best shaves I've gotten in months. 10 out of 10 on sharpness, comfort, results, and fun. I've always felt my heavier Sheffield near-wedge was my smoothest blade, but today it was like the full hollow Imperial I've been using for this experiment wasn't even touching my skin. I went with an extremely shallow angle and held the razor ever so lightly, and the darned thing cut so well that I skipped the XTG pass entirely, getting a near-perfect shave in record time. Had an extra pass's worth of lather just sitting there in the bowl at the end.

Now I'm thinking that I hadn't really taken advantage of the 30k's potential before during the short time I've had it, because this was a whole different ballgame. Neat!

Originally Posted by northpaw

3rd shave:


Now I'm thinking that I hadn't really taken advantage of the 30k's potential before during the short time I've had it,

Bart's explanation of this phenomenon made it very easy for me to understand what you are saying about squeezing more potential from the 30k. I definitely am getting more out of my 30K this way.
Ditto on last nights 3rd shave for me. I check for changes each shave under 100x mag and it looks identical to day 0. It might be redundant it seems to report each day if the blade is not changing too quick. I don't see any immidiate problems with this kind of bevel at least for now. I wonder how much of the original aggressive feeling was the learning curve from the shaving part or a small "falling back" like Bart mentioned? Sounds like you are using new technique Adam.
Mike

Originally Posted by Kingfish

For me Jimmy,There is a learning curve shaving with the blades finished like this. It is a real light touch and a little less scything. But light touch is the biggest difference.
Mike

Originally Posted by Bart

I'm not in the ultra-sharp shaving part of town. You guys have my utmost respect, but my skin already protests when I squeeze the best out my Chosera 10K. (weepers and stuff) Most likely because I'm used to shaving with a heavier hand than good when using a "feather"-sharp edge. Bart.

Mike, I am +1 with Bart in preferring a friendlier edge. I too have suffered the weepers and attendent irritation when I shaved with the 'scary' sharp edges. I have some of the ultra high grit stones but rarely use them. Lately an 8k Naniwa is about as high as I go and frequently a 5k Shapton pro or Naniwa is what I am shaving off of following the strop of course. Sooner or later I may jump in and try your experiment though when I have the time and the inclination. Thanks for getting it going.

Mods, If you think it inappropriate here, please feel free to delete this message. It's just an idea to help facilitate this experiment, not a money making scheme.....

Hey guys, it seems this experiment is limited to just a select few people who actually own the 30K.

I was thinking of offering (1) 30K Shapton glass on a rental basis in the continental US, like a library book, to those seriously interested in participating in this experiment. Renters would get it for a week, use it how they like, lap it (any acceptable SRP endorsed method - DGLP, 1200 DMT or fine grit sandpaper), and return it to our NJ office.

While it is not limited to honemiesters, I would appreciate serious and responsible sharpeners/members only. Prerequisites include being a member for at least few months, and a preferred existing finishing stone that is higher than 8K (such as Naniwa or Chinese 12K, Shapton 15 or 16K Pro or Glass, or JNatural - I am open to ideas from Bart, JimmyHad, or Mike about jumping from cotecule to 30K)

Gentleman's rules will apply, along with a credit card payment for shipping (no PayPal, in case the stone should disappear). Renter will pay shipping both ways + token $5.00 handling fee.

Any interested, please PM me for more details and terms.

Thanks!

OK,

So I tried something new on a Wade and Butcher.

Instead of 10-15 strokes at the 30k with tape, I went and did about 200 - really establishing a 30K secondary/ micro bevel. This time I also looked under the scope to see if a bevel was actually forming. even @ 200+ strokes, there was still room for the 30K to work, but I figured this was enough for now.

IMO, You know when a razor is good to go when you can shave dry (I just did about an inch off my sideburns). My shave will have to wait until morning, though.

Originally Posted by jendeindustries

OK,

So I tried something new on a Wade and Butcher.

Instead of 10-15 strokes at the 30k with tape, I went and did about 200 - really establishing a 30K secondary/ micro bevel. This time I also looked under the scope to see if a bevel was actually forming. even @ 200+ strokes, there was still room for the 30K to work, but I figured this was enough for now.

IMO, You know when a razor is good to go when you can shave dry (I just did about an inch off my sideburns). My shave will have to wait until morning, though.

Tom,
I share and appreciate your passion for the 30k and thank you for inviting and providing the means for others interested to participate.
In this new experiment you are trying, it makes me think you could have stumbled on either of the following:
1. maybe a super stone pyramid micro between the 16k or similar will make save you from carpel tunnel syndrome
2. maybe your primary bevel could have been refined better as the 30k is really just finishing like a pasted strop and it sounds like way too much work

In any event, we still need to keep it as simple as possible and later figure out what happened. In other words "more is less" is what we are studying in this one and stay focused.(even though I really love your passion) If other participants, that are reporting daily or intermittantly disaggree I will stand aside for them and they can comment if needed.
Mike
Mike