Thread: Microbevels with the Shapton 30000

I've done the micro (or secondary) bevel with both the 30k Shapton and a couple different coticules. I went from no tape from bevel setting on the 1k Shapton on through to the 16k Shapton, then to two layers, and around 50 laps on the Shapton 30k. On the Coticules, i went no tape to two layers, and about a hundred laps with just water (the coticules were used from bevel setting all the way through. No other stones at all). All the stones gave exceptionally sharp, smooth edges.

I think the main thing I like about this method is that it is a relatively easy and *fast* way to get a darn nice shaving edge without having to mess around with pastes, etc. It's fast, easy, great results. Even a slow coticule will finish up pretty quickly with two layers of tape used to create a micro bevel. I have six blades honed this way, but not enough shaves on them to really know anything about maintaining them.

The comparison of the microbevel honing process to stropping with a pasted hanging strop is interesting. A frequently sighted flaw of the pasted hanging strop is that it is prone to creating a convexed edge. Here with the microbevel honing we are creating a convexed edge deliberately, but now it is a good thing

Originally Posted by matt321

The comparison of the microbevel honing process to stropping with a pasted hanging strop is interesting. A frequently sighted flaw of the pasted hanging strop is that it is prone to creating a convexed edge. Here with the microbevel honing we are creating a convexed edge deliberately, but now it is a good thing

The problem with pasted stropping is, not that it doesn't work very well, but that it is hard to control, and that the edge convexes further and further over a number of pasted stroppings. Eventually the resulting angle at the very edge becomes so great that it compromises the shaving comfort. That may take a while, but a heavily convexed bevel takes extra work on the hones the straighten out once it needs more than just a touch up.

With a secondary bevel things are way more under control. The secondary bevel does not become steeper over a number of touch ups, it only grows wider.
Eventually it will replace the primary bevel completely, but we must not allow it to come to that. When the secondary bevel starts becoming too wide to for an easy and quick touch up on a very slow and fine finisher, you can easily do some work without tape at the primary bevel. While that one grows again, the secondary bevel is being reduced. You don't even need to wipe it out completely, just bring it within reasonable boundaries again.
Here's an illustration that shows that principle.

For a larger view:

Best regards,
Bart.

Originally Posted by FloorPizza

I've done the micro (or secondary) bevel with both the 30k Shapton and a couple different coticules. I went from no tape from bevel setting on the 1k Shapton on through to the 16k Shapton, then to two layers, and around 50 laps on the Shapton 30k. On the Coticules, i went no tape to two layers, and about a hundred laps with just water (the coticules were used from bevel setting all the way through. No other stones at all). All the stones gave exceptionally sharp, smooth edges.

I think the main thing I like about this method is that it is a relatively easy and *fast* way to get a darn nice shaving edge without having to mess around with pastes, etc. It's fast, easy, great results. Even a slow coticule will finish up pretty quickly with two layers of tape used to create a micro bevel. I have six blades honed this way, but not enough shaves on them to really know anything about maintaining them.

I think it is interesting that you are comparing coticules to the Shapton in you version of the study. I will have to get a super fine finishing Coti sometime soon to try also. I find the blade holds up very well and requires very little stropping with a month into using mostly my Challenge full hollow. I only used one piece of tape and no more than a dozen laps on the 30K.
Your idea sounds like it opens up the next step to compare the various finishers out there since this type of edge finish really isolates the effect of the stone. That is the only scientific part of this study since there is no control. I know lots of members are loving the Japanese Naturals, what better way to find out what that stone is really leaving the edge like than a micro. Also, with only one piece of tape you are not changing the shaving angle a significantly, which is a better shave IME. (Earlier experiments i did with steeper micros on wedges were not as good because of the higher angle attack while shaving is not enjoyable to me) I would say two pieces of tape are not changing anything too much.

Also Bart, I read up on your earlier work with secondary bevels. lots of thought and awesome study and tribute to the coticule. I hope you understand the simplicity of this study in contrast to your earlier work.
Michael

Originally Posted by Kingfish

I think it is interesting that you are comparing coticules to the Shapton in you version of the study. I will have to get a super fine finishing Coti sometime soon to try also. I find the blade holds up very well and requires very little stropping with a month into using mostly my Challenge full hollow. I only used one piece of tape and no more than a dozen laps on the 30K.
Your idea sounds like it opens up the next step to compare the various finishers out there since this type of edge finish really isolates the effect of the stone. That is the only scientific part of this study since there is no control. I know lots of members are loving the Japanese Naturals, what better way to find out what that stone is really leaving the edge like than a micro. Also, with only one piece of tape you are not changing the shaving angle a significantly, which is a better shave IME. (Earlier experiments i did with steeper micros on wedges were not as good because of the higher angle attack while shaving is not enjoyable to me) I would say two pieces of tape are not changing anything too much.

Also Bart, I read up on your earlier work with secondary bevels. lots of thought and awesome study and tribute to the coticule. I hope you understand the simplicity of this study in contrast to your earlier work.
Michael

Yup, you're reading my mind. That's exactly what I've been thinking about through the whole process. The first goal was to compare the Shapton 30k micro bevel to the coticule micro bevel. Honestly, I thought the 30k Shapton would blow the coticule out of the water. This just wasn't so. the coti finished off their micro bevels just as smoothly as the 30k Shapton, IMO.

Now to just get my hands on a good japanese finisher to *really* put this to the test.

Originally Posted by Kingfish

Hi Jim,
I started all my micros on razors that did not have issues. I don't believe these ultra fine polishing stones can fix problem razors that you can't "get right". Your razor should be sitting on a perfect bevel finished around 12000 -16000 primary bevel then the one layer and minimal laps on the 30K just tightens up your previous work another degree. I am glad you tried it, but I don't want to give impression that this is going to fix a razor that is "not right". That won't happen.
Everything you normaly do to get an edge then this is just the finishing touch. Thats all.
Mike

Can you give some more samples? How great your info is! It really useful for me. Thanks.

I reckon I've had something like 18-20 shaves off of this edge by now. Also shaved my wife's legs with it on two occasions, for what that's worth.

The absolute sharpness of it may have dropped the slightest bit (or I've just gotten used to handling it), but it's still far better than anything I'd been shaving with before. I'm able to consistently get perfect BBS from two passes - dropping the XTG pass entirely. On mornings I get antsy and grab another razor out of my rotation, I often wish I hadn't.

And all this with very little stropping! I've been doing only 10-15 passes on leather before I shave as a token gesture, but I'm not even sure it's necessary. I can't speak as to others' experiences with edge longevity, but this is completely atypical for me. Heck, I used to feel like I needed to strop again mid-shave half the time.

In a nutshell, the durability of this microbevel is off the scale, and there's no signs of it slowing down yet.

Looking back at how this thread started and where it has gone gets me thinking. First off, the 30k is what it is, meaning a super high grit stone that is capable of making a wicked sharp highly refind edge on a piece of steel. Providing that it has been refined to the point of where you would feel the difference on your face where it counts, on lower grits first. It has a narrow window of function that when used properly, I don't see how anyone could ever be disappointed if you are looking for that of keeness. The final result is a well defined bevel that on my face give a super smooth and close shave. Much thanks to Adam, who made me more mindful of the shaving angle and how important keeping it low is. The sharpness of this bevel allows for a low angle of attack. Facial hair even coarse beards like my own have no chance against it. Since little resistance is offered by the beard and having lowered my shaving angle, it feels like I am shaving with abandon, throwing caution to the wind as far as getting nicks or irritation. Since the bevel angle hardly changes with a single piece of tape, there is no need to increase angle and since the blade is wickedly sharp the angle drops and you get a fantastic shave. Lowering angle lowers irritation to the face. Again, thanks Adam for making me aware of it to the point where I have changed the way I shave. (two teachers, one in Macedonia and one In Florida taught something to each other here at SRP. How cool is that!!) The edge is very sturdy and I believe will last a very long time before needing to go back to the hone simply because of the lack of resistance means less stress to the edge.
I hope others that have tried it have had as much luck as we did and encourage others to try a very simple repeatable method of finishing your blade. I have tried eschers and Nakayama since, but in the application of what is being done here, the Shapton remains in my mind as good as it gets. On that subject, I now realize after playing with just a couple of naturals for a short period, that their forte, at least for the Nakayama is the wide range of duty in functional grits whereas the 30k is very narrow window of function. That does not make one "better' in my mind just different applications.
Cheers!
Mike

I been trying to work on my razor sharpening skills again lately, and I finally got to the point where I can truly appreciate this experiment. I still think there is a ways to go with my technique, but the basic edge is finally there, IMO.

So, I took my razor up through the Shapton Glass progression - 2K, 3K, 4K,6K, 8K, and 10K (the Japanese version). I stropped and checked the edge and a few hairs, and under the microscope it was still intact. I decided that the 16K might overdo it, so I added another piece of tape (making a total of 2 pieces) and did 10 strokes on the 30K glass.

I stropped on my new Kanayama 50,000 strop, and had one of my best shaves to date.

It's still to early for me to tell if the micro bevel is good because of it being a micro bevel, or because my technique is improving, or a little of both...., but it was definitely a step in the right direction.

I can't wait for the next razor, when time permits....

isn't a microbevel essentially what stropping creates over time? As the bevel becomes rounded by the strop, the angle of the actual edge becomes greater. That's basically what you're doing with a microbevel.

Or am I totally off-track?