Thread: Sharpening Systems = More Stones Better Results???

I like your thinking Glenn. I have exactly the same set of Shaptons you have and I think I could get by with half as many stones and come up with the same end product by going with with say 2K, 6K, 16K and 30K and I think I could eliminate the 16K in that group. The problem is I would spend more time on each of those stones. I use them all in progression and know at the end I will have the blade where I want it.

bj

BJ:

Exactly,,, you have the same thoughts as I had... Yes I know I can get there..
I mean seriously if you wanted to you could set the bevel on a 2k Shapton and go right to the 8k or 16k and work the smooth... or any such jump like the 1k Norton to the 8k Norton....We know that can be done.
But the smooth factor seems to me to be better like you and Tom are finding by spreading that work out over more stones...



Tom:
Just for info, I very, very rarely go over 20 laps on any Shapton stone once I set the bevel, if I do, it is usually the 2k if I feel a grab I might use a couple of extra laps to smooth it out..
As a side note I am working a pretty successful combo on the 30k, Many thanks to Lynn and especially Don from SRD for putting me on the right track with this stone... Don showed me his use of it at the last NC meet up which is a 5 lap back-hone. Right now I am getting good results from a 3-2-1 combo on the stone 3 honing laps, 2 back-hone laps, one honing lap...

Is there a difference between them at Naniwa 1-3-5, Shapton 1-2-4(6), and Norton 1-4-8? That's where the stones are most comparable imo - all ceramic synthetic waterstones with similar abrasive size, but different binders.

Originally Posted by hardheart

Is there a difference between them at Naniwa 1-3-5, Shapton 1-2-4(6), and Norton 1-4-8? That's where the stones are most comparable imo - all ceramic synthetic waterstones with similar abrasive size, but different binders.

I don't know if there is a difference scientifically but to me it sure feels like there is. All three will deliver the goods but I happen to like the feel and performance of the Naniwa superstones best. I'm using Shapton pros, not glass though.

Maybe Tom can give us the actual scientific differences here...

But to my hands they feel like three distinct stones as different as any naturals are...

The 8k is what I always try and compare, as that seems to be the "shave ready" standard...

The Norton feels like an actual stone to me, very similar to a fine Coticule

The Naniwa feels more like a Japanese stone, a softer feel to it, almost like you sprinkled powder on the stone...

The Shapton GS feels hard like a Arkansas but smoother they feel man-made is what I am trying to say here......

That is the best I can do for descriptions on the internet...

BTW all 3 of these are more than capable of giving a very good shave at the 8k level anything higher is just for fun...

Some interesting thoughts here. I think that whatever works for you consistently and on a repeatable basis, is the best progression. The main thing to learn in honing whether using an X pattern stroke, circles or even a rolling X or 45 degree X is learn these strokes first and well. It is the basis of everything you do and so long as it is comfortable and repeatable for you, the progressions should fall into place. Just like having the bevel set correctly as the cornerstone of honing, you actually build to the next progression you choose to go to. It is rare, particularly with the stones being discussed that I use more than 10 strokes before moving to the next progression other than in setting the bevel or when doing circles at the 4K and all of these stones work well. Add in the options of Naturals to finish and the pastes for glide and you have a lot of ways to get home.

Lynn

More stones = faster results
Smoother final stone = better results

Starting with a bar of steel and creating an edge on a ultra-fine finishing stone over the course of years of honing = best result.


I think there's a lot of misunderstanding over what stone changes do. Perhaps it's best to imagine each side of the razor as a separate mountain range that must be leveled for a road to be built (the road being the razor's edge).

Obviously your road will be created with the least lost earth (metal) and the smoothest if stone is removed by hand using the finest tools possible. But this takes a great deal of time. You can also use power tools, you can also use large scale machinery, you can also use dynamite.

Each step UP that scale is related to a step down in hone grit.

If you start with dynamite, yes you're removing a LOT of mountain fast, but you're also putting dynamite sized holes in the mountain, and many of these holes will reach below the ideal surface of the road, requiring MORE mountain be removed to level your road. So you take out a big chunk of the mountain, but leave a surface that is jagged the entire length with imperfections up to the size of the dynamite blast radius. So you bring in the big ol' caterpillers and start pounding and scooping, leaving you with a surface with + or - imperfections (the whole length) up to the size of your scoops. So you bring in the guys with pickaxes and shovels, leaving a surface with imperfections the size of those tools. Finally, assuming you're a perfectionist, you bring in guys with teaspoons and toothbrushes.

The progression I use is 1k to 4k to 8k to 16k (All Shapton CG) then onto a denim flatbed hone with 0.5m diamond spray. This works very well for me.

Granted, this is my first honing set up but I like the symmetry of doubling the grit each time. The only one thats missing is the 2k!

I'd be interested in trying other grits in the middle to see if this improves the whole honing experience.

Now the question is; Where to add the stones?

Is it better to have more at the bottom end, adding say the 2k and the 6k, or at the top by adding the 30k? Or both?

Glen, whats the honing progression you are using on the 30K? If I'm reading it right, you're doing 3 laps, 2 back hone laps and then one lap? Do you do this progression once only or do you repeat it? Could you use this on the 16k as well?

Is the 30k really worth the money do you think? Just curious, because I'm tempted to add to my Shapton set up what with Christmas nearing and all...! :-)

Thanks all, great post!

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I would tend to agree with your statement "within reason" of course.. But yes the higher the grit the less change that occurs with each stroke...
The biggest honing "mistake" to watch for is coming off the edge of the stone at an angle and sliding the bevel on the stone edge, that will wreck what you have accomplished to that point...

Thanks for the comment about watching the blade coming off the stone. I think I've done this a number of times, without realizing what was happening. As soon as I read this I had an 'aha' moment.

Originally Posted by Stubear

The progression I use is 1k to 4k to 8k to 16k (All Shapton CG) then onto a denim flatbed hone with 0.5m diamond spray. This works very well for me.

Granted, this is my first honing set up but I like the symmetry of doubling the grit each time. The only one thats missing is the 2k!

I'd be interested in trying other grits in the middle to see if this improves the whole honing experience.

Now the question is; Where to add the stones?

Is it better to have more at the bottom end, adding say the 2k and the 6k, or at the top by adding the 30k? Or both?

Glen, whats the honing progression you are using on the 30K? If I'm reading it right, you're doing 3 laps, 2 back hone laps and then one lap? Do you do this progression once only or do you repeat it? Could you use this on the 16k as well?

Is the 30k really worth the money do you think? Just curious, because I'm tempted to add to my Shapton set up what with Christmas nearing and all...! :-)

Thanks all, great post!

Harrelson Stanley, the USA importer of Shapton stones, says that doubling in grit is what he prefers for sharpening plane irons and chisels. The glass stones are laid out that way but the Professionals (what I have) are not exactly like that. Close enough though .... same with the Naniwa layout.

I happen to like following the 1k with the 2k very much. With the Naniwas it is the 1 to the 3k and I like that even better. I do think that doing more work on the bottom end will give better .... or at least faster results on the top end.

I have the 30k professional stone but I haven't used it a whole lot. I got a great deal on a NOS stone from a member who knew a vendor in Japan who was closing his store. I've used it a little but not enough to really have an opinion. Up until now I've been happy with the results I get going up to the 15k Shapton pro or the 12k Naniwa. I also like to finish on an Escher or coticule on some of my blades. Nice to have choices.

I don't sell my 30k because eventually I'll start to mess with it more and I may decide I like it. It is kind of like living 8 miles from the ocean. I never go there but I know it is there if I ever want to.