Thread: A second bevel added late.

The only way i can answer your questions is this.
Person who sharpness blade feels comfortable when he added extra 1 or 2 or 3. layer of tape to make secondary bevel. As a result he keeps sharpening process on and gets sharper edge.
Thinks wow this is great, works and result is in front of my eyes.
If Same person would not worry about the same edge and(keep it sharpening on) get maximum out of blade he will get exact same result.
i have to note :
adding only 1 layer of tape you will not be able to get secondary bevel
You must add at least 2 layers of tape to have secondary bevel.
Another illusion is this
when you crate secondary bevel your blade start to cut a little differently because of the angle. Mostly people hear s different noise. This is illusion.
They think wow blade cuts better (in fact it doesn't)actually it has exact same sharpness. if you change angle on your blade which you have not used secondary bevel you will hear exact same noise.
hope this helps

Originally Posted by Disburden

Sham,

what do you think about the other thread concerning Microbevels on the Shapton 30k? According to what you're saying, and you would know a LOT more than I would, these razors don't need a microbevel. They all are made from good steel to begin with, yet users say there was an improvement in the shaves. This was what made me wondering the question in the first place. The razor I mostly use is an ERN Ator shoulderless, the steel is fine, so another bevel on the edge wouldn't matter? If the Zowada razors are honed with a microbevel and the steel is good what's the point? Just a marketing plan that really has no foundation?

Have you tried the microbevel yourself on your razors and have proven your point to be true with good steel?

Thanks, I appreciate your knowledge!

Nick

You find that a yellow coticule with just water gives a better polish/leaves smaller scratches than a Naniwa 12K?

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

The only way i can answer your questions is this.
Person who sharpness blade feels comfortable when he added extra 1 or 2 or 3. layer of tape to make secondary bevel. As a result he keeps sharpening process on and gets sharper edge.
Thinks wow this is great, works and result is in front of my eyes.
If Same person would not worry about the same edge and(keep it sharpening on) get maximum out of blade he will get exact same result.
i have to note :
adding only 1 layer of tape you will not be able to get secondary bevel
You must add at least 2 layers of tape to have secondary bevel.
Another illusion is this
when you crate secondary bevel your blade start to cut a little differently because of the angle. Mostly people hear s different noise. This is illusion.
They think wow blade cuts better (in fact it doesn't)actually it has exact same sharpness. if you change angle on your blade which you have not used secondary bevel you will hear exact same noise.
hope this helps

For the most part, I agree with what you say above. Especially about the secondary bevel, and supposed change in "feel" and "sound" afterward. In a double blind test, I doubt anybody could pick that out.

Why do you say it takes 2 layers of tape to create secondary bevel? I have done it with a single layer of that clear Scotch tape and can see a notable secondary bevel under the scope.

I think it may be a semantics argument, but I am interested to hear your response.

As I recall Zowada's have a double bevel not because they are superior from any performance standpoint but because it's something he does more from a production standpoint. Of course I could be wrong there but that's what I recall.

Personally I hate double bevels and I see no advantage to them and once you have one you need to multitape to maintain everytime you hone.

I have 2 Zowada's and when it was time to do a touchup I removed them and found no difference. I wound up putting them back on because I found without the double bevel they would microchip through shaving. I've never run into that before but apparently there's something going on maybe the steel I don't know.

Originally Posted by Scipio

Nick

You find that a yellow coticule with just water gives a better polish/leaves smaller scratches than a Naniwa 12K?

Well, I always finish with a coticule because the edge becomes a lot smoother to the skin and to the ATG pass. I need the essential ATG pass for my beard type, so I have always used the coticule to smooth out the "tooth" of the edge. So, yes, I find it helps and makes the edge more gentle to the skin, but does not dull the edge.

Originally Posted by joke1176

Why do you say it takes 2 layers of tape to create secondary bevel? I have done it with a single layer of that clear Scotch tape and can see a notable secondary bevel under the scope.

I think it may be a semantics argument, but I am interested to hear your response.

Joe thank you for mention Scotch tape.
i have never used this tape but i was talking about 1 layer black electric tape.(cheap one)
1 layer black electric tape is not thick enough to make secondary level. if scotch tape is thick enough then it should be enough to make it secondary level.
hope this clears things.

Originally Posted by Disburden

I'm aware, I have used that method before and I like the results.

I was mainly wondering about my own honing progression and if I could place the microbevel after the 12K and still make a difference.

As others suggested just try it.

IMO, the microbevel passes should be very light and only
a couple of them.

Each razor, each honer and each shaver will see it differently.

A lumpy fist like mine I doubt this will help. A fine touch from a practiced hone master could make it worth much more than the extra bit of tape.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

...........I have 2 Zowada's and when it was time to do a touchup I removed them and found no difference. I wound up putting them back on because I found without the double bevel they would microchip through shaving...........

So in your experience, it added strength to the edge. That was my finding too. Also made up for poor ability. I still say try it and see for yourself. At this time, I am not doing it but I may try it again.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Could I use the tape and add a small "microbevel" on the razor during the last coticule stage or the 12K stage and add a performance to my razor that is not already there? The temptation to add extra "umph!" to the razor is getting to me, and I want to try this without damaging the edge ERN Ator.

FloorPizza did a micro with the Coti at the end and said he liked it. I think he used 2 pieces of tape. I only use one at the 30k level and get consistantly good results each time. Under magnification you can see exactly what the last polish accomplished as it is in clear contrast to the rest of the bevel. Hope this helps. A couple of us that have been using test razors are noting they hold up beautifuly.
On another note, more experienced and talented honers like Sham may not aggree on the necessity of the very slight micro one piece of tape affords, but for me(I do not claim to have his talent) it was a no brainer that has given me very consistant results providing your bevel is ready and refined to a point where you would be able to have a good shave. A little stropping on leather will add even more keeness but is not a must. Hope you enjoy it as much as I have.
Mike

Just two more observations. First, my attempts at achieving the same benefit from eshers and Nakayama was not significant as the 30k. I think the reason is that the 30k is very specialized in it's working range, but maxing a 30k into that range works better for an average honer like myself. People who have hone 1000s of razors undoubtedly have skills most of us never will and no doubt are not mindlessly going through the grits and may not see the benefit.
Also, since this is barely a micro, do not be tempted to lift the razor. I almost have the spine on my face when I shave.
M