Proper activities for a first date w/ jnat

Oz!

I'm doing WAY more than 15 finishing strokes. On the harder blades, 80 circles and 3 'X' strokes.

My tpt is not across the blade, but inline w/the edge. 'How much movement/how fast does it sink through the skin. The shapton would easily turn a thumb pad test into a rib cage test. I couple of blades came in that keen - yet were still of the vegan persuasion - just won't cut flesh. (I think I'm in love w/ a rock)

I'll try to get pics out tomorrow. I work w/ the Mrs. through a long day. It may have to be Wed. when I can enjoy outdoor light. In the mean time, So's pics. What's not visible in these pics are the cracks, chips, side nubs, most of which have been lapped out at this point. In the first two pics, the roughness below the large chip has been lapped smooth. The right edge had one large saw cut at the top right corner, a smaller ledge from a saw cut mid way through, and another about 1.5" further down. The top center edge has 1/2" chip I have no idea what to do with. I try to navigate around it. There's a chip about 2-2.5" up from the right bottom edge I try to nav. around also.

'Very grateful for your kind help, Oz.

Ya that is a rather lust worthy looking stone ya got there :)

Its what happened after I tried to work w/ Murray on what he (I think improperly) called a Karasu. 'Wound up being almost 2.5x the cost of the sale price from Murray, but regardless of pricing, I do have very great confidence in Mr. Yamashita. Even with my rudimentary skills, the edges from this rock are very very impressive. I've only used a c12k prior to this. I actually like the 12 alot, especially w/ slurry and on the back side, I drew a diamond-patterned grid in crox crayon. It smoothed out the harshness that would sometimes come from using water only. This stone seems utterly incapable of harsh. That's worth the price of admission for me. Blades I used to have to exercise great care with I now can use with calm confidence. I actually think it will make me remove a couple for sale ads, 'cause those blades are now so good I don't want to let them go.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Oz!

I'm doing WAY more than 15 finishing strokes. On the harder blades, 80 circles and 3 'X' strokes.

Hmmm... I must try that on mine & see what happens.


I'll try to get pics out tomorrow. I work w/ the Mrs. through a long day. It may have to be Wed. when I can enjoy outdoor light. In the mean time, So's pics. What's not visible in these pics are the cracks, chips, side nubs, most of which have been lapped out at this point. In the first two pics, the roughness below the large chip has been lapped smooth. The right edge had one large saw cut at the top right corner, a smaller ledge from a saw cut mid way through, and another about 1.5" further down. The top center edge has 1/2" chip I have no idea what to do with. I try to navigate around it. There's a chip about 2-2.5" up from the right bottom edge I try to nav. around also.

'Very grateful for your kind help, Oz.

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From the pics, I see no problem in chamfering that straight side perfectly smooth but any anomaly in the surface should be lapped flat. 240 grit wetndri or a SiC whetstone will do the job quickly. I'd probably try to smooth that area top left too. Just to get rid of any sharp edges

Hi Pink,


I am curious as what your whole progression is? What do you use to set the bevel and what are the steps up to the Chinese hone?

I just got a brand new #10000 Gokumyo that I have tossed into the mix. Up until now I set the bevel on a DMT #1200, refined it on a #3000 and #5000 and then went straight to my finishing hone (no naguras just the DMT to raise a slurry). I would/do spend most of the honing time on that hone. Sometimes (depending on how leisurely I hone) upwards of 30 minutes. I have posted about it before and so has JimR, the slurry honing on a final finisher can need a lot of time, and a light controlled hand/stroke. The less is more motto is all fine and good but you will never over-hone on a natural hone. It seems to be a man made hone issue only.

I personally raise a medium slurry and do circles up and down the hone until the slurry dries or get 'clingy' (startes sticking to the blade). I do one spray with a water plant mister, and do straight back and forth until the slurry gets dry again. Then I spray it twice and do X-strokes until it is nearly dry again. I wash the blade and dry it and strop and the results are ALWAYS the same. Velvet smooth. It has yet to pass a HHT and the TPT also feel less sticky than it did at #5000. But the feel of the edge in action is second to none. I know Jim also gets this and it just takes practice. Many times with the same method and the same razor until it gets there.

Good luck and remember it's not a race and hone happy.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

I'd probably try to smooth that area top left too. Just to get rid of any sharp edges

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I've lapped the long right side smooth, though the surface has a nick or two. The top surface was lapped flat as the first operation. The craggey upper left section, I've used w/ the DMT to generate slurry, rubbing the dmt at an angle towards the outside. This makes the jagged section a lower surface than the main honing surface.

What I'm not entirely clear on is the nicks in the top surface about 1.5-2" up from the bottom right edge. It's lapped flat, but is flat sufficient to keep from grabbing an edge? That question applies for the 1/2 are in the top center. I'm afraid to stroke over it for fear it will grab and destroy an edge.

Zeth - Wow. I strongly suspect I over-did the slurry on the first 4 blades, but other than that, I was very close to the process you describe. I would think that working the slurry that long would give the most thorough breakdown of the abrasive layers, yielding the finest grit.

'Hearing that both HHT & TPT seem to degrade, but the edges are still superior is sorta rocket fuel for my head. If you're able, could you talk about how thick/thin the slurry is that you start out with? Or maybe point me to the link you & Jim have talked about this process? The Williams edge isn't very high on those tests either, but dang! The results are fabulous. I'll have to try this. I'm not as concerned about speed as I am result. Speed-wise, circles w/ water give a very smooth keen edge in little time.

My progression as is: Bevel set on Norton 1k. 'Typically, 20 circles, then test after 10 x-strokes (for a non-smiling blade - more w/ a smile) I don't leave that stone until the edge shaves arm/leg hair at the skin level all along the edge. From there, I do 30-40 small diameter circles on the 4k side of the Norton, then usually 20 x-strokes until I begin feeling some drag on a TPT. From there, a Naniwa 8k: 40 circles, 20 x-strokes until a strong TPT is all along the blade. C12k next. I raise a slurry w/ a synthetic ruby stone, to the consistency of about 1% milk. 40 circles, 20 x-strokes and test. TPT should be very strong here, or 20 more strokes. Mainly on a smiling blade or one with some warp, if a section is not fully keen, I'll do 20-30 more circles, focusing a slight lifting on the heel to put the cutting action on the toe, and usually a tiny bit of rotational torque on the shank to push a bit of the bevel into the stone. This works for the cranky blades. Flat blades don't need it at all. Before the arrival of the blue rock, I'd either ad a layer of tape and give 7-8 more strokes for a micro-bevel on a fully dry stone, or let the stone dry and take 10 x-strokes on the opposite side of the c12k where I drew a diamond-shaped grid w/ a crox crayon. The crox smoothed out the harshness, as did the slurry when I started using that on the chinese rock.

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Originally Posted by ZethLent

The less is more motto is all fine and good but you will never over-hone on a natural hone. It seems to be a man made hone issue only.

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Seth, I kinda disagree with the "man made hone issue" I think as you're coming off a 5k to a fine J-nat you are probably sneaking up on the edge without over-honing but if you take a finer edge say off your new 10k to an aggressive natural you could crumble the edge in 40-50 strokes. I've done it albeit with a Nakayama Suita but I've seen & tested the odd Asagi that cut like diamond . I do however agree that there are naturals that are so forgiving that overhoning is near impossible :)

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Originally Posted by pinklather

I've lapped the long right side smooth, though the surface has a nick or two. The top surface was lapped flat as the first operation. The craggey upper left section, I've used w/ the DMT to generate slurry, rubbing the dmt at an angle towards the outside. This makes the jagged section a lower surface than the main honing surface.

What I'm not entirely clear on is the nicks in the top surface about 1.5-2" up from the bottom right edge. It's lapped flat, but is flat sufficient to keep from grabbing an edge? That question applies for the 1/2 are in the top center. I'm afraid to stroke over it for fear it will grab and destroy an edge.

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pinkl , just make sure any suspect edge areas are smooth & rounded. Check how the blade lays & travels on the hone. Don't risk damaging an edge to save some stone.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

If you're able, could you talk about how thick/thin the slurry is that you start out with?

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This was something that will always be individual. Someone's thin slurry may be another's medium. Etc. Etc. I'll be using the hones again tonight on a nice little Klas Tornblum and will be including the new Gokumyo I got before the final polisher.

I'll try to take some pics of the slurry at the different stages and post them in this thread. Also realise that I use a very tired DMT that has very little cut left in it. So the slurry is already quite fine when I start. But I use no where the same amount as I would on another hone with a mikawa nagura.

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Originally Posted by onimaru55

if you take a finer edge say off your new 10k to an aggressive natural you could crumble the edge in 40-50 strokes. I've done it albeit with a Nakayama Suita but I've seen & tested the odd Asagi that cut like diamond .

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This is interesting. i have never seen 1 st one (crumble the edge by natural stone) but i had natural stone which acted as same as your Asagi.
stone which crumble the edge was fine stone or course?

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Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

stone which crumble the edge was fine stone or course?

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Yes quite fine. I would rate it (Nakayama Suita) as mid polisher, fine like 16k but very aggressive cutter. In 20 passes it eliminated all scratches on the bevel except a few random ones that looked like left overs from 1k hone. Razor was previously finished on Chinese 12k. I have only seen a couple this fast. If I had stopped at 20 passes all was good but I pushed it to destruction with another 30 strokes. Just an experiment :)

HiPink,

Here are the pics of my slurry.

First one of the hone dry:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...913-slurry.jpg


Now wet:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...4-slurry-1.jpg


Now I have worked up the slurry:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...5-slurry-2.jpg

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...6-slurry-3.jpg


Razor pushing the slurry:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...7-slurry-4.jpg


Slurry starting to dry out:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...8-slurry-5.jpg

Slury drying on the razor and it thick ready for more water.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...9-slurry-7.jpg

http://straightrazorpalace.com/membe...0-slurry-6.jpg

Gorgeous stone Seth, nice visual pics. What kind of j-nat stone are we looking at?
thanks
Mike:)

Zeth, Thank You!!

That IS a nice looking stone.

Your photos do help alot. I would have called that a light slurry, but as you say - the variation is huge.

I took a blade already done on water back to the slurry until it was sticking to the blade, doing circles. 1/2 a spritz and the back & forth strokes until sticky again, then 2 squirts and I didn't quite take it to being dry. TPT was again underwhelming (no hht done), but a small test patch of atg was quite promising - a full shave will happen within the hour - will update. Even in this test, with no beard prep - just wet the beard, rub some soap mixed w/ hand cream for glide - the blade angles possible w/ this stone are noteworthy. I first noticed it w/ the Williams blade, but atg of 30+ degrees is not uncommon. I don't know if I'm discovering what everyone else already knows, but that's never been possible w/ blades off the other rock.

Interestingly, Yamashita-san writes that many people have reported back to him that dry laps have proven very effective. I'm assuming these would be the last finishing strokes after slurry and then water. I took one blade I was already shaving with and gave it 20 laps dry. That blade was immediately smoother. With the feel of the tpt & hht on the williams blade, finished by the honorable Riooso - it does seem like these tests must be taken as secondary indicators, making one more dependent ultimately on a full shave test.

Test results in a moment.

Just silly smooth. Sharp enough to do the job w/ no complaints or apologies. I gave minimal laps on water only & no dry laps, so I expect more performance can be obtained. 'Just a really really pleasant shave. I'll do more experimentation with slurry - and alot lighter than I've used in the past, and alot less water.

Thanks for the pics Seth. They help a lot. I have been making my slurry a lot heavier.

Later,
Richard

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Originally Posted by MODINE

Gorgeous stone Seth, nice visual pics. What kind of j-nat stone are we looking at?
thanks
Mike:)

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This is an Ohira Renge Suita. Yes it is a gorgeous stone. :)

If you look closely at the last photo where the overhead light is reflected on the stone you can see the tiny 'su' indentations. Also all of those red/pink flecks in the stone are the 'renge'.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

I'm doing WAY more than 15 finishing strokes. On the harder blades, 80 circles and 3 'X' strokes.

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Well I said I'd try this on my Asagi :) but I forgot the 3 X strokes so this is just 80 circles on a light smear of water.
First pic is plain stone after being wet 17 hours ago. Still a wet patch in the corner. Very dense hydrophobic stone.
Second pic is an old Sheffield wedge that I use for breaking in diamond plates, well stuck to the stone showing the swarf after 80 circles. Negligible auto slurry. You can see from how much metal is removed why I don't do that many passes to finish a razor that is near shave ready.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

Interestingly, Yamashita-san writes that many people have reported back to him that dry laps have proven very effective. I'm assuming these would be the last finishing strokes after slurry and then water. I took one blade I was already shaving with and gave it 20 laps dry. That blade was immediately smoother. With the feel of the tpt & hht on the williams blade, finished by the honorable Riooso - it does seem like these tests must be taken as secondary indicators, making one more dependent ultimately on a full shave test.

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I have not experimented with a "dry stone" yet, but for finishing after slurry, I start with my stone wet and keep going (without counting) with very, very light strokes until the stone is basically just damp. On my stone, this seems to be about 100 laps or so. This method has taken my edges to a new level.

I think I will continue with this method and try the 20 completely dry laps next time around.

Johnny, I don't know - but he's smiling, and keeps touching his face.

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Originally Posted by pinklather

I took a blade already done on water back to the slurry until it was sticking to the blade, doing circles. 1/2 a spritz and the back & forth strokes until sticky again, then 2 squirts and I didn't quite take it to being dry...
I gave minimal laps on water only & no dry laps, so I expect more performance can be obtained. 'Just a really really pleasant shave. I'll do more experimentation with slurry - and alot lighter than I've used in the past, and alot less water.

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I took the same blade and gave 30 small circles on water, then 15 x-strokes. Wiped the blade and the stone surface clean - it was dry to the touch in about a minute. Then 20 laps dry. TPT after this was quite respectable. 40 canvas, 80 plain latigo. Same no prep test - just a bit of cream and hand lotion smeared on the heavy section of wet stubble from bottom of jaw line up about 3/4". This prep method typically gives more 'pull' than a shower and full face lathering. XTG along jaw line just wiped the face clean. I then went ATG uppwards to the middle of the ear. THERE WAS NO LATHER AT ALL - JUST WATER. ATG w/ a 30 deg blade angle, and just wiping the face clean. It's phenomenal. This kind of edge not like anything I've tried. 'Very much a new standard, and 2nd isn't even close.

And now think back to your best shave ever off your C12k
Now touch your face.
Anything is possible ,even without Old Spice :D

Well Pink sounds like you have almost arrived at you destination....problem is if you have the "Princess and the pea" syndrome you'll never get there!:)


Take Care,
Richard

Richard! You've been on my mind - usually about the princess/pea thread. I've been meaning to re-read that thread, wondering how/why an edge wouldn't last longer. 'Doesn't make me think you're doing anything wrong - the proof is in that Williams edge - just planted a terminal itch w/ the jnat.

It'll be a full shave w/ the same razor today. My cheek is still mostly smooth from the test last night. I'm sure a faster cutting stone could produce similar with less time or energy, but being able to get an edge like that at all is huge for me. What puzzles me is how I'd done every operation individually or in combination (slurry/water/dry, circles, back and forth, x-strokes), and the specific sequence seems to have finally grabbed the golden ring (or 'a' golden ring). There are many finishes (coti/escher) that I have never tried or felt. I'm in the wrong tax bracket to try them all for now. I've tried sharp, but you showed me smooth like there's just no tomorrow. The satisfaction is just astounding - worth all the work and expense.

I'm sure I will learn more as I go, but this level of satisfaction is more than enough to heave a big sigh of relief and call it good. Perhaps specific blades or circumstances will produce more questions, but at this point, with a razor that has pits in both the bevel and the edge - gives shaves I'd jump through my navel to get on any blade.

The learning hasn't cease, but it's sure fitting to give massive thanks to each of you that have helped this noob. Yamashita-san, Oz, Riooso, Zethlent have been invaluable. Hard to say how much I appreciate your incredible help. Will gladly jump for the opportunity to respond in kind - in any area I can be of help.

Glad to hear that you are settling down because when you first get a stone that you paid some big bucks for. One gets a little antsy about what you are getting in the way of an edge and a little panic sets in. J-Nats are very different animals and I am glad that you have reached some point of equilibrium. You will eventually drop the unnecessary steps and find what works best for you but the problem is that we can only shave once a day. I have added another couple shaves a week by doing the back of my neck but it still takes time to get it going on.

The guys here are awesome, and me as a beginner, have been very appreciative of the help that they offer. Good group!

Take Care,
Richard

Sorry for necromancing this thread, but can someone post a link to the princess/pea thread?

Thanks,

Bobby

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Originally Posted by Nphocus

Sorry for necromancing this thread, but can someone post a link to the princess/pea thread?

Thanks,

Bobby

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"The princess/pea" thing was a remark about how some people even though they have the finest edge with the smoothest of a mirror and the keenness of the best edge ever achieved,will, just like the princess in the story of "The Princess and the pea" find something wrong with it. This, of course, will mean another stone of some kind will be needed to achieve this "better" edge.....but for some people it never ends till many thousands of dollars have been thrown to the honing Gods. I don't remember the original thread but offer this as, hopefully, a satisfactory explanation.

Take Care,
Richard

Hey, Bobby

I think the reference came from the honorable Utopian (who has helped me greatly).
Utopian:
"I'll start by pointing out that millions of men shaved with edges off of just a coticule or barber hones for their entire lives.

I lean toward thinking that either you are in a "Princess And The Pea" shaving state or else you are being heavy handed with your honing. I suggest that you get either a coticule or a barber hone and maintain one razor with just that for a while. That will help you either improve your honing, or lower your shaving standards, or improve your shaving technique."

http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-12k-like.html

P.S. Richard, I've told you before, but I love your signature line.