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Gents,
The edge supplied by Riooso on an asagi did it's work. I have a modest sized asagi coming from So.
I anticipate it taking some time to get to know the stone, but if there is any thinking about the best regimen, battery of techniques to try that will give that familiarity, 'would appreciate your thoughts.
Many Thanks
This is overly broad, but...
Experiment!
Try everything. Make a slurry, dilute a slurry, don't make a slurry, don't use water, try pressured strokes, try light strokes, compare circle strokes to x-strokes, try coming off a 12k or an 8k or whatever you've got. Just use it a lot and see what happens.
Remember, it's a rock. Unless you drop it, you really can't do any harm to it so you might as well use it every way you can.
As Ron said its a rock I agree with him try diffrent ways to use it and see which one workes best, worst that will happen is you wont like the edge that comes off it. Keep us posted on what workes best for you.
U DOG! Man that did not take long!
I think you will find out soon enough what you like in a edge.
Take Care,
Richard
It's the same when you try any "Natural" stone, you have to play with it.
First thing I do it to determin if it is flat, flatten if needed.
Once I have it ready to hone with I'll hone a razor to the point where I need the "new" hone. If it's replacing a stone I'll use the new one to see how it shaves, than go back a stone to "rough" it up a hair and finish on the replaced hone to see the feel.
Here is where it gets dicey, as you still have to see what the new stone likes. Naturals are just like that and you have to play with them to find that sweet spot.
I basically do the same thing as Chef when I get a new stone. Up to now I wanted a finisher so I would use everything below that then use the finisher to she what she's got.
Take Care,
Richard
About the time I'm happy w/ my edges, the honorable Riooso sends me a blade who's edge is just other-worldly. That's what did me in. Sigh. Wallet in rehab...
Checking for flat/chamfering makes sense as taking care of first things. I've read that simply using w/ just water can leave a harsh edge (shapton blues). So suggested that dry laps would likely do better than just water - I'd never thought of that w/ the jnat.
The rock's mission is just finishing, ATM. It will see blades coming off a c12k. Now perhaps a questions is - does it matter what attributes should be prioritized on the 12K? Just water gives sharp, but not much smoothness. Since the finish will be done by the Asagi, should I forget about 12k harshness & send it to the asagi as wicked sharp as possible? or keep it smooth w/ some slurry on the 12k before introducing the edge to the eastern blue-eyed devil?
I expect to be driven to madness, trying to get all my edges to act like that one from Rio. [queue scene of crazed looking man being lead away in restraints, yelling: it's almost there! 'almost smooth enough. Paramedic: 'another one thought he could get a wacker to shave like a williams. 'sad case. Crazed man: but I love my wackers...]
Seriously, I appreciate your help, gents.
Dwarvenchef: I had the great pleasure of meeting Mr. Carter yesterday. He is one impressive young man.
Try it both ways and see for yourself! I would guess that you don't need to worry about smooth until your Asagi, but I'm confused about your Chinese hone usage, as I haven't seen the sharp/smooth issue between the slurry/water on the Chinese hone in the way you describe. To me, you get sharp and smooth off of the water. It doesn't really matter which way you go, as the Asagi will modify either edge off of the Chinese hone.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
Oh well. As Einstein said, "if we knew what we were doing, it wouldn't be called research!"
I've had the opportunity to use a few Asagi's and they are always a stone I recommend for finishing. Tis one of my favorites. It's fun just to do 10-20X strokes on water following the 8K depending on the size of the stone or do 20 circles each side and then 10 X strokes or do a light slurry with your slurry maker of choice and work to just water. The key for me is very light pressure. With your stone being from So, you know it is a quality piece, so now it's just the fun part.
This stone can also be used to play with the one hone method on a razor in decent shape going from a very thick slurry to water. This may take a little playing around, but the journey will be fun.
Enjoy!
You are in for a love affair that might ruin your other relationships. I just got my new J-Nat this week and every night I have spent hunched over it experimenting and honing razor after razor. My back was aching, my arms were numb, my eyes bloodshot, but I just kept honing. I actually skirted all of my other responsibilities this past week as I could not pull myself away from the stone! :whipped:
As others have said, I have been experimenting. I tried using it as a straight finisher with just water after my nani 12k. I used it as part of a progression after my coticule dilution with honzan slurry diluted to water.
Two days ago, I got my nagura stones and the last two nights, I have been using those exclusively trying different progressions with them using the one stone method.
Two many options......not enough time! Have fun, but don't fall too far down the rabbit hole. :rofl2:
Utopian: I'm confused about your Chinese hone usage, as I haven't seen the sharp/smooth issue between the slurry/water on the Chinese hone in the way you describe. To me, you get sharp and smooth off of the water.
It would probably be more accurate to describe the smoothness the slurry gave as more forgiving, rather than say the water only finish was harsh. I used water only for most of the last 4 months. I did find the c12k slurry gave a different feel. For info's sake - I'd run 20-40 circles on the 12k with slurry, followed by 20 or so x-strokes. Though I've done without any tape/microbevels, I've liked the edges resulting from doing final laps with one layer of tape on a completely dry 12k stone. Between 7-25 strokes, depending on how hard the blades are. There are lots of other ways, but this has been good lately.
I have found with the asagi I have from So, no matter how wicked sharp my blade is, a light slurry on the asagi always makes the blade smoother. Although I too love to experiment, that stone is hard to beat and quick too.
For example, I finally learned how to finish with my German water stone and the results are superlative, but that asagi does it Soooooo much faster. Have fun.
Kingfish. I appreciate your kind help here. I'm sort of enthralled these days w/ slurry's affect on smoothness. Riooso's edge on that Williams blade is just strange. 'Doesn't feel that sharp, but clears the face better than any blade I have. I'm sort of thinking that maybe first, I should test the affects of the thickness of the slurry. Then, maybe how many refreshes of the slurry, and how long to run any given slurry. I'm dying to get my hands on it. 'Should be later this week. Thanks again for the tip on slurry & smoothness. Smooth is big medicine to me.
Like everyone has already said experiment. Initially I would lap it, make sure and take a pic prior to rubbing off kanji. With a new natural stone I have found it helps to first start with the slurry to see how fast or slow the stone is. If you do not see the slurry turning grayish after 20 to 30 X strokes you “typically” have a slower stone.
All than means is that it is a finisher and you may need to do 100 strokes to start to polish your edge. J-nat particles get finer and finer when used. Each one is different. So-san usually asks you about your experience then try’s to pick a stone for the steel (str8 razors), and your skill set. I hope this makes sense. It will be a good stone, have fun.
Mike:)
I'm with Ron on this one. Try it out as many different ways as you can and see what the results are like!
More strokes, less strokes, slurry, no slurry, slurry diluting to water and so on and just see which edge you like.
I do 25 with a medium slurry, 25 with a light slurry, 25 with water and then 25 strokes to dry on mine, that works very well.
Good luck and keep us posted! :)
The only variable about testing how "fast" a stone keep in mind that, for instance, a new TI made with C135 steel it will take longer to get the slurry to turn color. That steel is very hard indeed.
By the way did you get the stone yet?????
Take Care,
Richard
Speaking of 'Proper Activities'. Don't forget the most important step when testing. Send some prayers of thanks to Shogun Minamoto for letting you use his rocks. :p :)
Oz, is there a diety of any kind I should be supplicating for freight companies? :)
'Sure appreciate all the help here. 'Really would rather bypass the HAD bug - I'm in the wrong tax bracket for it. 'Hoping one good rock should satisfy for quite a while.
Sigh. tick tick tick goes the clock -waiting for the lovely blue rock.
LOL.. None that I know of mate but you could make one up if it makes you feel better :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
I choke a little with embarrassment, having posted that I couldn't chime in about how beautiful a new photo of a prized rock was - that its what it does is the beauty. I was fine with that view until I touched the working surface, which felt like silk. Then I started thinking it was pretty. sheesh, these rocks are something.
The Atoma was not with the stone when it arrived. Not everyone seems to think the atoma is necc. but it was a done deal by then. So a quick check w/ a straight edge showed some dishing - needs lapping. My other waterstones, I lap under running water with a dmt 325 grit. Is this okay w/ the asagi? The only other plate I have is a 8k grit dmt. Most threads say not to submerge, much less soak the stones. Is there a way to lap them flat w/out the running water?
Also, in lieu of the atoma, I've used a synthetic ruby stone to raise slurry on the c12k. Would this be suitable for the asagi?
I appreciate your help, Gents. 'Pretty excited about playing w/ this rock. Fortunately, the lovely bride is busy most of the wkend, so I can play alot! The objective is an edge as smooth as Riooso delivered on that Williams blade. If I want a little more bite, just water supposedly returns that bite quickly. Wish me luck!
They can be quite pretty eh ? :)
No probs with the DMT C for lapping, of course as long as you're sure of it's flatness & no probs submerging the Asagi. They are very dense hard stones & will not suffer at all for the time it will take to lap. Of course if you had the Atoma you wouldn't have to worry about the plate sticking to the stone as you lap :p
I would not use a synthetic stone for slurry. Just use the DMTC for now. It will work just fine.
Enjoy !
I'd have gotten that one all wrong.
'Will use the dmtc for slurry.
'Sure appreciate your kind help.
No problemo amigo . Look forward to hearing your experiences.
I always use a small DMTC file size and pick up most of my slurry from the typical places on hone that get less use and never the middle. My stone stays flat for very long time.
I have never use Atoma, but many including So swear by them. Please let use know how you like yours in comparison.
Congrats! Do as So speaks of and seal the edges of the Atoma with epoxy so that water can't get behind the diamond mesh. Just lap the thing under slightly running water with the Atoma and you will be good to go. I have a bit of a hard time making slurry with the Atoms because it sticks to the little recesses in the Atoma but what I do is stand it on end above the stone and wipe it with my index finger so that the slurry ends up on the stone. Sometimes when I am lazy I will use a little DMT card but really the Atoma will keep the stone flat every time you make slurry so that is good. I use a spray bottle to wet the stone and control the slurry density.
You honing bastard! Let us know how you do with it. I am really excited for you.
Take Care,
Richard
So-san suggested for prioritizing smoothness, to try some dry honing.
Each blade at this point is shaving sharp from a c12k. After Asagi, 40 strokes canvas, 50 latigo.
Slurry the thickness of whole milk - opaque
Ontario 6/8 1:1 hol. Pitting on blade, including in bevel. Thick slurry, 20 circles, 20 x-strokes. No graying of slurry (maybe slow stone?) 20 more x-strokes, strop. Improvement over c12k in both sharpness and smoothness. atg strokes smooth, very good stubble reduction.
Vom Cleff (soligen) 6/8 1:1 hollow: 35 strokes on dry stone. Very smooth, and more keen.
Dovo inox 5/8 1:1 hol. thick slurry, 50 strokes, refresh slurry, 50 more strop. More smooth, more keen
Jos. Allen & Sons non-xll 5/8 1:4 hol This went south. Tried same thick slurry x 25 laps, refresh, 25 more, refresh, 25 more. Super smooth, not so keen. Tried 35 water only, some keenness returned, but still not good.
Thinner Slurry: 2% milk, somewhat transluscent.
Will edit, append more results as they happen. Again, Thank You, Gents for your kind help. If ever I wished I could grow beard faster!!
Not a bad idea. I usually slide the Atoma to the side of the stone then tilt it to break any seal. I get a lot of the slurry to stay on the stone that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by riooso
I tried two blades w/ the slurry the consistence of 2% milk, then 1%. Not appreciable difference. Smooth is there no matter what (this is really good IME). Keenness is more elucive.
So I tried water only. Okay Keen is back. Strop, shave: yes its sharp, but dang smooth. Went back & re-finished the Vom Cleff, Dovo, and Ontario - same thing - really sharp, really smooth. This is good. The only blade that wouldn't respond to the stone was the little Jos. Allen 1/4 grind. Maybe the rock doesn't like sheffields. It LOVEs soligens and US blades (Ontario, Genco).
Another discovery. This is my first 'bout' - a non standard size/shape stone. I'm not used to navigating a stroke around the chips on the sides & ends, so in several cases, I do circles only. It delivers quite nicely, but makes me suspect my stroke sucks. On the harder blades (wacker), it takes about 80-120 circles to get the keenness. I haven't tried doing more to see if the circle generated slurry brakes down and give a further dose of keen & smooth.
Shave test - didn't shave this morn so I'd have some real estate to test. No beard prep, just wet, lather, test. 'Made for more 'pull' with the blades, but less than previously finished blades. 'Shaved 15 sections with 11 blades today.
Initial thoughts:
1) this rock is almost as slow as the c12k. Bummer.
2) I don't have enough experience to make valid observations about it's other qualities, but sharp and smooth with no slurry is good, though unexpected. Most guys posting on the jnat thread on coticule.be found just water to deliver sharp, but with harshness. I though the jnat slurry was where all the magic is. So why do I need a dmt or atoma?
3) Yes, its a significant step up from the c12k - for every blade except the Sheffield. 'Worth the $$$? So far, the jury's still out. I've never tried the competition - which for me would be an Escher/Thurry. I don't really see myself springing for the other rocks for a long time.
Any thoughts other jnat users have on using a slow stone would be most welcome. Or input that says the judgement of 'slow' is not yet earned.
Many Thanks, Gents.
This an IMHO thing. I am confused in that your goal of keen and smooth have been met. I look at a finisher as just that, a finisher. How does the blade sound when it hits the stone, does it ring. Does the stone release any slurry with water only? If it doesn't then you have a hard stone and the drop in speed is a given but it is a relative thing. I use Naguras and another mid-course stone and get it to the stage of finishing. I have your dimensions at 6.7 inches by 2.9 which is a good size for finishing. In my estimation "X" patterns should be the stroke of the day and the strokes should be very very light. By the time a blade hits my finishing stone it should be almost done and ready to shave on. I typically use a heavy slurry and go about 50 strokes then go about 50 with just water to get what I want which is on the border of getting a tad harsh.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
Keep us up to speed.
Take Care,
Richard
A couple of things pinkl. Smooth all the chips off the stones edge. You don't want a tentative stroke to compensate. It will be counterproductive & your strokes need to be spot on not "sucky" :).
If it is indeed a slow stone use it as such & have the blade as good as possible before using it. Remember your shaves should be pretty great at 8k. I have a feeling you may need to do more intermediate work before going to the finisher.
Also 30 -50 strokes is not necessarily slow but your C12k may actually be fast.
As for the Sheffields I do very minimal strokes on my J-Nat finishers. Generally I find the Coticule gets the best out of the old wedges.
'Can't say how much I appreciate your kind help, Gents. It invaluable when wading into this strange world. - Chips on the stone: At the widest point, it takes up 1/4 of the width, and 1/2" on one end. On the most straight side, small humps that could easily be removed or smoothed. I hit the bumps while doing x-stroke and sometimes with circles. These can be fixed. Thank you! - Stone width dictate the x-stroke be done with the blade at about a 70 deg angle (30 deg from vertical). - Edges came to the asagi, already at shaving condition from the c12k, except for stropping. I tried one blade coming off the 8k naniwa, and the results weren't good - so I kept doing the c12k before asagi. Any section of the edge not shaving adequately sharp are brought in with circles. That this would be needed makes me question the quality of my stroke. I've been convinced of the edge quality needed from the 8k, so I think I could shave off the 8k with no trouble. When using the 12k as a finisher, I use a moderate slurry, as it seemed to smooth out the harshness and speed the cutting. Here, I've not used the slurry, thinking the asagi would address the harshness - which it seems to do. - Strokes are light. The only added pressure seems to be a small torsional/rotational pressure for the toe, which seems to need the pressure for consistent contact with the stone on a couple blades. As to 'ringing', I'm probably not as familiar with the indicators. Blades make ringing sound on the c12k also. I'm under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the blade tempering makes for the ringing. There are probably details I'm not aware of here. - "As for the Sheffields I do very minimal strokes on my J-Nat finishers." Oz, THANK YOU! - "Does the stone release any slurry with water only?" Yes, though minimal. Alot of strokes and you see faint slurry. - So far, I'm surprised and a bit confused about the role of slurry for this particular stone. 'Best results have been with just water. Smoothness is there - including on blades that were ho hum previously. The Vom Cleff became a wonderful shaver. Would you think that continuing to exploit any slurry raised by the blade would bring further results as the slurry breaks down into finer particles? It may be that I have to perfect the edges of the stone to allow a respectable x-stroke before that question really comes into play. Again, Thank You both for your kind & patient help. It helps immeasurably in loosening the knots between my ears on getting the process down with this stone. I still marvel at the surface texture - like silk.
Sounds like your having fun :)Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
A bit of time with the D8C 325 and I have 2 smooth side edges. One is 6" long, the other just shy of 4".
I also took another blade back to the stone after a concentrated effort at 8 & 12k. 'Didn't have enough beard (after a great shave w/ a formerly so-so razor) to fully test, but it seemed to be about the same as yesterday's water only finish (dang good, to be sure).
In the process, I started with much less water, and after about 30 strokes, could see some darkening of the slurry raised by the blade. I suspect I was obscuring some of the stone's feedback of color, etc by using too much slurry, too much water. So maybe it's not that slow?
So many confusing results. I feel foolish frequently. But I can't deny that it has improved every blade I have except one.
It's hard to face this, but I continue to get more keenness from circles than x-strokes. Both are very light - no pressure, but its sad to see that my stroke may have some repair work to do. I can typically do several x-strokes without degrading the keenness of the circles, but if I do 15-20 strokes, it has either gone downhill, or I'm confusing increased smoothness with a decrease in keenness. Maybe this is part of what Yamashita-san meant when he said a good stone will make you better at honing. Sigh. Back to basics to find the flaw and correct it.
On heavier grinds - you mentioned sort of a 'less is more' approach, and a preference for the coticule. Would this be true for the 1/4 grinds as well as the wedges? Riooso's edge on the 1/4 grind isn't that keen to the tpt, but the results are astounding. It's hard to separate out what is the blade and what is the edge finish. (it's a breathtaking Williams blade) It sort of adds fuel to the issue of maybe confusing increased smoothness with decreased keenness. That blade takes more forward force to initiate a stroke, but underway, no more than any other, and the result is a cleaner, closer swath cut than anything else in the drawer.
Yamashita-san didn't say that becoming better at honing would be easy :)
Again, Your help is so much appreciated.
you can raise slurry on the stone with your razor?
Are you sure you are not talking about swarf?
Hello Stefan. And thank you for looking at the noob flailing his way into a first jnat.
My understanding of swarf is that it's powder fine slurry composed of tiny metal bits produced by abrasion. When I backed way off on the amount of water I was using, I could see swarf. When I used more water, I could see the appearance of a white, milky substance that I'm thinking is slurry from the stone itself. I see both now when I use very little water.
Any thoughts you have on the experimentation/testing is very very much appreciated.
Ok,Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
I was not sure, I have never seen auto slurry even from a soft stone, yours must be very soft.
That's really odd. The only way So would send a soft stone for razors is if he had a dozen on the table & put the wrong one in your parcel :p :) How much slurry we talkin about pinkl ? Clouds of the stuff or a just a slight colour change of the water sitting on the razor ?
No,no not all heavier grinds, I just meant the old Sheffields. I imagine there may be other J-Nats out there that work fine on them just not my J-Nats.Quote:
Originally Posted by pinklather
How hard are your Jnats Oz?Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
I have one extremely hard that does not absorb water at all, it works great on sheffields, and solingens.
I'd say the first 4 blades had clouds and alot of water. In hindsight, I think this was a mistake, and after a couple attempts at a lighter slurry (still w/ too much water), I went to (too much) water only. And it worked! Well! Last night, I drastically reduced the water, at which time I could notice the creation of the swarf. During the too much water stage, I could see some slurry cloud the water faintly. It certainly opens the possibility that I'm full of fertilizer as to the stone's hardness. 'Wouldn't be the first time, won't be the last.Quote:
Originally Posted by onimaru55
It was instructional to go back and try the tpt on the edge Richard put on the Williams. (note: I mentioned I wanted smooth most - and he said it may feel less keen. He delivered what I had asked for - and it delivered smoothness I've never known) What I've thought was 'not very keen' was about like that edge. With water only (Richard's preferred final laps) strong keenness was there, and the smoothness was too. 'Makes me rethink impressions of the keenness.
The revised edges of the stone help alot, but there's nicks in the edges of the stone that could only be removed by losing a fair amount of width. Circles continue to give the most keenness, though I follow with 2-4 x-strokes with no probs. What to me feels like it approaches the feel of the 30k shapton edge I tried from the Honorable Sixgunner (Glen), remains insanely smooth. That's what really caught my attention on a previously ho-hum blade. It seems that no blade that rides this rock is capable of harsh. I'm sure if there's a way to make an error and produce harshness, I'll find it. :)
'About to go test shave w/ the only blade who's shave rivals the williams - the beloved 1/4 grind wacker that got a fresh ride on the rock last night. I'm expecting this to be incredible.
update: edge on the wacker delivered a very very satisfying shave. The main difference from previous edges is that it's more vegetarian. 'Cuts extremely well w/ no pressure, just seems to go to great lengths to avoid any nicks or weepers. 'Very very pleasing. 'Seems each blade done on the asagi gives similar smoothness (I love it). They don't seem to test HHT as well, but I don't care, the shaves are outstanding. Also, like the Williams, each blade can keep cutting with unusually wide blade angles. WTG of 70 deg is not hard on easier sections. ATG of 30+ is not undoable, even in heavier growth. 'Odd, but consistent. Both the Williams and the wacker are 1/4 grinds. Full hollows enjoy a similar behavior, though not quite as pronounced.
Gents, your help is invaluable. I'm grateful for the education. Hope I'm able to be of help in similar fashion.
I've seen a few harder Asagi but not many. Water just sits on my Asagi for ages. I'd say its very hard but very fast for its fineness. My Suita is more absorbent & a more aggressive cutter. I'm sure I didn't explain properly but the issue is more to do with my mid stages of honing than the finisher. I normally use the Shapton GS stones up to 8k & then a very fast Suita followed by the Asagi. Works great with razors on the hard side but in my hands the softer tempered Sheffields just seem to do better on the Coti after 8k. I do use my J-Nats after that but as I said before very minimally.Quote:
Originally Posted by mainaman
Apologies to pinklather if I've strayed off topic here.
Did I say we need pics ? :p :DQuote:
Originally Posted by pinklather