Thread: Proper activities for a first date w/ jnat

Congrats! Do as So speaks of and seal the edges of the Atoma with epoxy so that water can't get behind the diamond mesh. Just lap the thing under slightly running water with the Atoma and you will be good to go. I have a bit of a hard time making slurry with the Atoms because it sticks to the little recesses in the Atoma but what I do is stand it on end above the stone and wipe it with my index finger so that the slurry ends up on the stone. Sometimes when I am lazy I will use a little DMT card but really the Atoma will keep the stone flat every time you make slurry so that is good. I use a spray bottle to wet the stone and control the slurry density.

You honing bastard! Let us know how you do with it. I am really excited for you.

Take Care,
Richard

So-san suggested for prioritizing smoothness, to try some dry honing.

Each blade at this point is shaving sharp from a c12k. After Asagi, 40 strokes canvas, 50 latigo.

Slurry the thickness of whole milk - opaque

Ontario 6/8 1:1 hol. Pitting on blade, including in bevel. Thick slurry, 20 circles, 20 x-strokes. No graying of slurry (maybe slow stone?) 20 more x-strokes, strop. Improvement over c12k in both sharpness and smoothness. atg strokes smooth, very good stubble reduction.

Vom Cleff (soligen) 6/8 1:1 hollow: 35 strokes on dry stone. Very smooth, and more keen.

Dovo inox 5/8 1:1 hol. thick slurry, 50 strokes, refresh slurry, 50 more strop. More smooth, more keen

Jos. Allen & Sons non-xll 5/8 1:4 hol This went south. Tried same thick slurry x 25 laps, refresh, 25 more, refresh, 25 more. Super smooth, not so keen. Tried 35 water only, some keenness returned, but still not good.

Thinner Slurry: 2% milk, somewhat transluscent.



Will edit, append more results as they happen. Again, Thank You, Gents for your kind help. If ever I wished I could grow beard faster!!

Originally Posted by riooso

I have a bit of a hard time making slurry with the Atoms because it sticks to the little recesses in the Atoma but what I do is stand it on end above the stone and wipe it with my index finger so that the slurry ends up on the stone.

Not a bad idea. I usually slide the Atoma to the side of the stone then tilt it to break any seal. I get a lot of the slurry to stay on the stone that way.

I tried two blades w/ the slurry the consistence of 2% milk, then 1%. Not appreciable difference. Smooth is there no matter what (this is really good IME). Keenness is more elucive.

So I tried water only. Okay Keen is back. Strop, shave: yes its sharp, but dang smooth. Went back & re-finished the Vom Cleff, Dovo, and Ontario - same thing - really sharp, really smooth. This is good. The only blade that wouldn't respond to the stone was the little Jos. Allen 1/4 grind. Maybe the rock doesn't like sheffields. It LOVEs soligens and US blades (Ontario, Genco).

Another discovery. This is my first 'bout' - a non standard size/shape stone. I'm not used to navigating a stroke around the chips on the sides & ends, so in several cases, I do circles only. It delivers quite nicely, but makes me suspect my stroke sucks. On the harder blades (wacker), it takes about 80-120 circles to get the keenness. I haven't tried doing more to see if the circle generated slurry brakes down and give a further dose of keen & smooth.

Shave test - didn't shave this morn so I'd have some real estate to test. No beard prep, just wet, lather, test. 'Made for more 'pull' with the blades, but less than previously finished blades. 'Shaved 15 sections with 11 blades today.

Initial thoughts:
1) this rock is almost as slow as the c12k. Bummer.
2) I don't have enough experience to make valid observations about it's other qualities, but sharp and smooth with no slurry is good, though unexpected. Most guys posting on the jnat thread on coticule.be found just water to deliver sharp, but with harshness. I though the jnat slurry was where all the magic is. So why do I need a dmt or atoma?
3) Yes, its a significant step up from the c12k - for every blade except the Sheffield. 'Worth the $$$? So far, the jury's still out. I've never tried the competition - which for me would be an Escher/Thurry. I don't really see myself springing for the other rocks for a long time.

Any thoughts other jnat users have on using a slow stone would be most welcome. Or input that says the judgement of 'slow' is not yet earned.
Many Thanks, Gents.

Originally Posted by pinklather

I tried two blades w/ the slurry the consistence of 2% milk, then 1%. Not appreciable difference. Smooth is there no matter what (this is really good IME). Keenness is more elucive.

So I tried water only. Okay Keen is back. Strop, shave: yes its sharp, but dang smooth. Went back & re-finished the Vom Cleff, Dovo, and Ontario - same thing - really sharp, really smooth. This is good. The only blade that wouldn't respond to the stone was the little Jos. Allen 1/4 grind. Maybe the rock doesn't like sheffields. It LOVEs soligens and US blades (Ontario, Genco).

Another discovery. This is my first 'bout' - a non standard size/shape stone. I'm not used to navigating a stroke around the chips on the sides & ends, so in several cases, I do circles only. It delivers quite nicely, but makes me suspect my stroke sucks. On the harder blades (wacker), it takes about 80-120 circles to get the keenness. I haven't tried doing more to see if the circle generated slurry brakes down and give a further dose of keen & smooth.

Shave test - didn't shave this morn so I'd have some real estate to test. No beard prep, just wet, lather, test. 'Made for more 'pull' with the blades, but less than previously finished blades. 'Shaved 15 sections with 11 blades today.

Initial thoughts:
1) this rock is almost as slow as the c12k. Bummer.
2) I don't have enough experience to make valid observations about it's other qualities, but sharp and smooth with no slurry is good, though unexpected. Most guys posting on the jnat thread on coticule.be found just water to deliver sharp, but with harshness. I though the jnat slurry was where all the magic is. So why do I need a dmt or atoma?
3) Yes, its a significant step up from the c12k - for every blade except the Sheffield. 'Worth the $$$? So far, the jury's still out. I've never tried the competition - which for me would be an Escher/Thurry. I don't really see myself springing for the other rocks for a long time.

Any thoughts other jnat users have on using a slow stone would be most welcome. Or input that says the judgement of 'slow' is not yet earned.
Many Thanks, Gents.

This an IMHO thing. I am confused in that your goal of keen and smooth have been met. I look at a finisher as just that, a finisher. How does the blade sound when it hits the stone, does it ring. Does the stone release any slurry with water only? If it doesn't then you have a hard stone and the drop in speed is a given but it is a relative thing. I use Naguras and another mid-course stone and get it to the stage of finishing. I have your dimensions at 6.7 inches by 2.9 which is a good size for finishing. In my estimation "X" patterns should be the stroke of the day and the strokes should be very very light. By the time a blade hits my finishing stone it should be almost done and ready to shave on. I typically use a heavy slurry and go about 50 strokes then go about 50 with just water to get what I want which is on the border of getting a tad harsh.


Keep us up to speed.


Take Care,
Richard

A couple of things pinkl. Smooth all the chips off the stones edge. You don't want a tentative stroke to compensate. It will be counterproductive & your strokes need to be spot on not "sucky" .
If it is indeed a slow stone use it as such & have the blade as good as possible before using it. Remember your shaves should be pretty great at 8k. I have a feeling you may need to do more intermediate work before going to the finisher.
Also 30 -50 strokes is not necessarily slow but your C12k may actually be fast.
As for the Sheffields I do very minimal strokes on my J-Nat finishers. Generally I find the Coticule gets the best out of the old wedges.

'Can't say how much I appreciate your kind help, Gents. It invaluable when wading into this strange world. - Chips on the stone: At the widest point, it takes up 1/4 of the width, and 1/2" on one end. On the most straight side, small humps that could easily be removed or smoothed. I hit the bumps while doing x-stroke and sometimes with circles. These can be fixed. Thank you! - Stone width dictate the x-stroke be done with the blade at about a 70 deg angle (30 deg from vertical). - Edges came to the asagi, already at shaving condition from the c12k, except for stropping. I tried one blade coming off the 8k naniwa, and the results weren't good - so I kept doing the c12k before asagi. Any section of the edge not shaving adequately sharp are brought in with circles. That this would be needed makes me question the quality of my stroke. I've been convinced of the edge quality needed from the 8k, so I think I could shave off the 8k with no trouble. When using the 12k as a finisher, I use a moderate slurry, as it seemed to smooth out the harshness and speed the cutting. Here, I've not used the slurry, thinking the asagi would address the harshness - which it seems to do. - Strokes are light. The only added pressure seems to be a small torsional/rotational pressure for the toe, which seems to need the pressure for consistent contact with the stone on a couple blades. As to 'ringing', I'm probably not as familiar with the indicators. Blades make ringing sound on the c12k also. I'm under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the blade tempering makes for the ringing. There are probably details I'm not aware of here. - "As for the Sheffields I do very minimal strokes on my J-Nat finishers." Oz, THANK YOU! - "Does the stone release any slurry with water only?" Yes, though minimal. Alot of strokes and you see faint slurry. - So far, I'm surprised and a bit confused about the role of slurry for this particular stone. 'Best results have been with just water. Smoothness is there - including on blades that were ho hum previously. The Vom Cleff became a wonderful shaver. Would you think that continuing to exploit any slurry raised by the blade would bring further results as the slurry breaks down into finer particles? It may be that I have to perfect the edges of the stone to allow a respectable x-stroke before that question really comes into play. Again, Thank You both for your kind & patient help. It helps immeasurably in loosening the knots between my ears on getting the process down with this stone. I still marvel at the surface texture - like silk.

Originally Posted by pinklather

Edges came to the asagi, already at shaving condition from the c12k, except for stropping. I tried one blade coming off the 8k naniwa, and the results weren't good - so I kept doing the c12k before asagi. Any section of the edge not shaving adequately sharp are brought in with circles.
On the Asagi ??? It can't be that slow if it's cutting enough to alter sharpness.

As to 'ringing', I'm probably not as familiar with the indicators. Blades make ringing sound on the c12k also. I'm under the impression (rightly or wrongly) that the blade tempering makes for the ringing. Yes but also the grind. You won't hear of many singing wedges

So far, I'm surprised and a bit confused about the role of slurry for this particular stone. 'Best results have been with just water. Smoothness is there - including on blades that were ho hum previously. The Vom Cleff became a wonderful shaver. Would you think that continuing to exploit any slurry raised by the blade would bring further results as the slurry breaks down into finer particles?
You can only hone to a certain point & the blade will dictate how fine you can get so the answer could be both yes & no.

It may be that I have to perfect the edges of the stone to allow a respectable x-stroke before that question really comes into play.
That will help

Sounds like your having fun

A bit of time with the D8C 325 and I have 2 smooth side edges. One is 6" long, the other just shy of 4".

I also took another blade back to the stone after a concentrated effort at 8 & 12k. 'Didn't have enough beard (after a great shave w/ a formerly so-so razor) to fully test, but it seemed to be about the same as yesterday's water only finish (dang good, to be sure).

In the process, I started with much less water, and after about 30 strokes, could see some darkening of the slurry raised by the blade. I suspect I was obscuring some of the stone's feedback of color, etc by using too much slurry, too much water. So maybe it's not that slow?

So many confusing results. I feel foolish frequently. But I can't deny that it has improved every blade I have except one.

It's hard to face this, but I continue to get more keenness from circles than x-strokes. Both are very light - no pressure, but its sad to see that my stroke may have some repair work to do. I can typically do several x-strokes without degrading the keenness of the circles, but if I do 15-20 strokes, it has either gone downhill, or I'm confusing increased smoothness with a decrease in keenness. Maybe this is part of what Yamashita-san meant when he said a good stone will make you better at honing. Sigh. Back to basics to find the flaw and correct it.

On heavier grinds - you mentioned sort of a 'less is more' approach, and a preference for the coticule. Would this be true for the 1/4 grinds as well as the wedges? Riooso's edge on the 1/4 grind isn't that keen to the tpt, but the results are astounding. It's hard to separate out what is the blade and what is the edge finish. (it's a breathtaking Williams blade) It sort of adds fuel to the issue of maybe confusing increased smoothness with decreased keenness. That blade takes more forward force to initiate a stroke, but underway, no more than any other, and the result is a cleaner, closer swath cut than anything else in the drawer.

Yamashita-san didn't say that becoming better at honing would be easy

Again, Your help is so much appreciated.