Thread: The differences among finishing stone.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

Jimmy you can over hone in any stone .it will just take more or less time.
of course honer should know what he is doing too.
Lets say to overhone blade on escher you will need to make perfect strokes without pressure for at least an hour very slowly.
You can get there eventually. is this a good idea? of course not just crazy people same as me will do it for test purposes.
4 razors don't have exact same angles-- bevel and edge angle i mean. some has been used more or less.

Don't get me wrong Sham, I'm not knocking what you're doing. I just don't quite understand it. It reminds me of the guys when I first came around who talked about polishing the edge until there were absolutely no scratches. I read that and figured that must be what I'm supposed to do.

Then I got razors honed by Lynn, Glen, Josh Earl, Joe Chandler, Livi ..... and they were shave ready to the max and had a scratch pattern. A pronounced scratch pattern. So I figured out that, for me, getting the razor sharp was the paramount objective and that putting a scratch free bevel on display, as it were, was not something to be concerned with.

Of course we want an edge that will stand up to use after honing but differing bevel angles is something that has never been something I've examined. Interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up. As far as being crazy .... Sham I've always thought you and I are the only sane people on SRP and sometimes I'm not sure about you !

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Don't get me wrong Sham, I'm not knocking what you're doing. I just don't quite understand it. It reminds me of the guys when I first came around who talked about polishing the edge until there were absolutely no scratches. I read that and figured that must be what I'm supposed to do.

Then I got razors honed by Lynn, Glen, Josh Earl, Joe Chandler, Livi ..... and they were shave ready to the max and had a scratch pattern. A pronounced scratch pattern. So I figured out that, for me, getting the razor sharp was the paramount objective and that putting a scratch free bevel on display, as it were, was not something to be concerned with.

Of course we want an edge that will stand up to use after honing but differing bevel angles is something that has never been something I've examined. Interesting topic. Thanks for bringing it up. As far as being crazy .... Sham I've always thought you and I are the only sane people on SRP and sometimes I'm not sure about you !

Jimmy i always thought angle of the blade depends spine and edge.
it is mostly will stay same as you hone spine and edge wears same time.
Now i have nothing against it.
This is the easiest way to explain.
lets say you hone and finish edge without taping.
stones are X and next is Y.
you check the edge you see X edge is how it should be but
then you check Y and see edge looks like you have used tape when you hone this blade in fact you are not.
now i am thinking why in the world Y stone should act this way?
sharpness of the both blades almost same.
This is new to me and i don't understand so far.
i am thinking this may be the big reason some Japanese stones are so expensive.
why type edge they produce.

Originally Posted by hi_bud_gl

you check the edge you see X edge is how it should be but
then you check Y and see edge looks like you have used tape when you hone this blade in fact you are not.
now i am thinking why in the world Y stone should act this way?
sharpness of the both blades almost same.
.

Maybe this is to do with individual stones hardness. I know you are talking about finishers but imagine honing a bevel on a DMT1200, even flat bevel both sides. Then use soft King 1200 waterstone. King edge would become slightly convex. With polishers & light pressure convexing may only show as a slight microbevel assuming Y stone is slightly softer than X

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Maybe this is to do with individual stones hardness. I know you are talking about finishers but imagine honing a bevel on a DMT1200, even flat bevel both sides. Then use soft King 1200 waterstone. King edge would become slightly convex. With polishers & light pressure convexing may only show as a slight microbevel assuming Y stone is slightly softer than X

Softness of the stone could be factor too.it does make sense to me.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

Maybe this is to do with individual stones hardness. I know you are talking about finishers but imagine honing a bevel on a DMT1200, even flat bevel both sides. Then use soft King 1200 waterstone. King edge would become slightly convex. With polishers & light pressure convexing may only show as a slight microbevel assuming Y stone is slightly softer than X

I think you might be on the right track here based on what I've read about the honorable Nakayama. I've read that if it is, let's say for arguments sake, a 30.000 grit equivalent, as you hone the grit that is released from the binder is ground even finer.

So your 30,000 equivalent is becoming 50 or 60,000 as the honing progresses. I'm not speaking from experience here, only repeating my understanding of what I've read in the past and postulating that this could be the source of the mystery of the bevel angles Sham presented.

I think this is why So only likes to sell what he considers hard stones to razor folks ie to keep the bevels as true as possible.

Originally Posted by onimaru55

I think this is why So only likes to sell what he considers hard stones to razor folks ie to keep the bevels as true as possible.

Well that is also interesting. I have an Escher with a label on one end that says 'yellow/green and on the other end a label that reads 'guaranteed soft'. This stuff can get confusing.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

Well that is also interesting. I have an Escher with a label on one end that says 'yellow/green and on the other end a label that reads 'guaranteed soft'. This stuff can get confusing.

Hmmm... I know nothing about desirable traits in Eschers. May be a relative term or marketing ? Does this soft Escher require more frequent lapping than other finishers ?

I do not have a way to test this but one idea that I have not
seen posted is that as the slurry drys it keeps the spine
from touching the hone and lifts the spine a little. Additionally
the slurry gathers ahead of the edge and as the edge rides up
on the micro marbles they cut more aggressively at the front
of the bevel and generate a false bevel. Combined the slurry in
front of the edge and the slurry under the spine could and adjust
the apparent/ effective angle of the edge as much or more
than a layer of tape would (+/-)

Coticule garnets pulverize and change dimension (finer) in the slurry
and act differently as the honing progresses. I suspect the spine is key
in this pulverizing action -- tape would reduce this effect. When rinsed
of slurry only the rounded tops of the garnets scratch the steel. This
is a good thing especially when a little lather and a soft hand is used.

Silt and slate stone hones like the Chinese 12k have micro grains of quartz
that are tougher and do not pulverize. Combined with the clay mud they
would support the spine a lot higher and bounce more along the front
bit of edge.... Think marbles in pancake batter. Some quartz grains
are very round and very fine and when well held by a sturdy matrix they
do not scratch deeply.

Rinsing the slurry lowers the spine and presents the cutting edge
to the very top of the hard bits hidden in the hone. For a lot of razors this is
is the best final step.

Barber hones may have coarser bits but only the top of the grains
are exposed. A little lather helps the blade skip across the tiny tops
to good effect as does a skilled light touch. Some barber hones
have finer bits than others... Arkansas hones are in the skip across
the top class of hones.

Modern man made hones... a light slurry cuts very fast. The grains
do not pulverize but are finer to start (10K/12K). Rinsing the
slurry again presents the sharp noses to steel for an even finer
finish.

Jnats... I have almost no clue -- someone please send me a dozen
to I can spend the next year learning a bit about them.. I will
pay return postage

I said I have no way to test.... one way is to take a microscope
and inspect the slurry. All the minerals need to be checked
especially the harder sub micron bits. Big floppy flat clay grains are
almost a do not care but they dominate many of the micro photographs
I have seen. They are important in how the slurry works and
presents the durable hard bits to the steel.

Originally Posted by niftyshaving

Coticule garnets pulverize and change dimension (finer) in the slurry
and act differently as the honing progresses. I suspect the spine is key
in this pulverizing action -- tape would reduce this effect. When rinsed
of slurry only the rounded tops of the garnets scratch the steel. This
is a good thing especially when a little lather and a soft hand is used.

Only thing I would fix there is garnets do not cleave--hence the extreme slurry-dulling effect you get on a coticule.

I get the same microbevel look on my Jnat too--requires slurry to do anything. If I only go 1-2 rounds, it does look like I used tape on the edge. I always stick to pretty much no pressure on that stone, as it has a way of sucking a blade to the surface.