Thread: The multi-bevel micro-bevel challenge!

With 10-20 light laps on a 10-12k Naniwa, I have a microbevel thats easily spotted even at 64x magnification, with 1 bonus layer of tape.

Did anything ever happen with this challenge? Did the results get posted somewhere else?

I think it died out

But I will post a success story for you

I rarely ever use Micro-bevels, haven't found much use for them,,, But I got in a TZ custom Damascus a couple of months ago that the owner requested that I use the Full Shapton set and to re-create a Double bevel on it ..

I took it through the 8k level with a single layer of tape, and then instead of only doing a second bevel on the 30k I decided to try it on the 16k and then continue to the 30k.. It worked like a champ, put on the 2 layers of tape did 20 light laps on the 16k and then 6 laps on the 30k gave it a very smooth edge... I felt that is "Defined" the secondary bevel a bit more

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I think it died out

But I will post a success story for you

I rarely ever use Micro-bevels, haven't found much use for them,,, But I got in a TZ custom Damascus a couple of months ago that the owner requested that I use the Full Shapton set and to re-create a Double bevel on it ..

I took it through the 8k level with a single layer of tape, and then instead of only doing a second bevel on the 30k I decided to try it on the 16k and then continue to the 30k.. It worked like a champ, put on the 2 layers of tape did 20 light laps on the 16k and then 6 laps on the 30k gave it a very smooth edge... I felt that is "Defined" the secondary bevel a bit more

The reason I did the search on the micro bevel and landed on this thread was because I was emailing both you and Stefan about a couple problematic blades that I simply could not seem to make any headway with. Stefan suggested adding another layer of tape to create a micro bevel. POW! Success. I had been honing away on both of these razors for quite a while. Bevels were set. But I simply could not get that level of sharpness I was looking for. In the process I was watching the edges with a microscope. I could see them changing. They would go from invisible edges to that defined white-line edge but there never seemed to be any sharpness. The line would get honed away and it would begin again, never reaching any level of sharpness. I put another layer of tape on at the 8k stage and suddenly it came right around. On to a 12k and it was VERY sharp indeed. I tested it with my shave this morning and it was good. Finally success. The other one still needs to be evaluated and perhaps needs a little push. I don’t think I’d do this every time but when I run into this problem again, I’ll have something to answer it with.

I guess the question that jumps straight to my OCD brain, is "Was it the double bevel, or was it simply the steeper bevel that did the trick" would you get the same outcome if you simply honed with 2 layers of tape from the get go ???? You now have the next experiment hehehehe

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I guess the question that jumps straight to my OCD brain, is "Was it the double bevel, or was it simply the steeper bevel that did the trick" would you get the same outcome if you simply honed with 2 layers of tape from the get go ???? You now have the next experiment hehehehe

I went with the assumption that it was just the steeper bevel that did it but I can't say for sure. I was simply happy to finally get a sharp edge after having worked for quite some time with little success. I suppose it could be verified by resetting the bevel with two layers of tape and see if it hones sharp.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

The reason I did the search on the micro bevel and landed on this thread was because I was emailing both you and Stefan about a couple problematic blades that I simply could not seem to make any headway with. Stefan suggested adding another layer of tape to create a micro bevel. POW! Success. I had been honing away on both of these razors for quite a while. Bevels were set. But I simply could not get that level of sharpness I was looking for. In the process I was watching the edges with a microscope. I could see them changing. They would go from invisible edges to that defined white-line edge but there never seemed to be any sharpness. The line would get honed away and it would begin again, never reaching any level of sharpness. I put another layer of tape on at the 8k stage and suddenly it came right around. On to a 12k and it was VERY sharp indeed. I tested it with my shave this morning and it was good. Finally success. The other one still needs to be evaluated and perhaps needs a little push. I don’t think I’d do this every time but when I run into this problem again, I’ll have something to answer it with.

On the problem razors, I would love to see pictures of them when we discuss them here. Unless the micro bevel is being done on non problematic razors like to preserve a damascus pattern or simply personal preference. I usually find that the need for tape is because a razor is way out of what and that usually is heavily and unevenly flattened and where the uneven flattening and the uneven flattening is not the same on both sides. These are crazy hard razors for new people to take on and can be very frustrating sometimes to those of us who have honed a few razors. Many times people declare these razor warped and they can take hours of repair time to get the entire edge to a point where it will come in contact with the stone. An alternative is a rolling X which may work fairly quick depending on the razor or again, take hours to get right. Another alternative is the micro bevel created by taping the razor. Usually one layer of tape will only reflect the damage in the spine and bevel, so you need to build up to 2 or 3 layers and I have seen people do a 4th layer as well. Simply speaking, all you are doing is changing the geometry of the razor to create a bevel which will produce a shavable edge. Personally, I have found that some micro bevels produce an edge that does not last as long on some razors as others and I haven't figured that out yet. There are a ton of ways to skin the proverbial cat and it's good to have all of them in your arsenal as there are a ton of funky razors out there that can still be made to shave if those are the kind of razors you like. It would just be fun to see some of them as we discuss them up front.

What is interesting is that you can definitely create these micro bevels at any stage in the game if you have the time to play with them and get most to produce a decent shave. I have found that you can hone a decent razor with no tape and then put tape on at the finishing stone. You can start with one layer and go to two layers. Two layers and go to three layers and three going to four. Never went beyond that but all have produced shaving edges so far. The fun begins when switching from a razor in good shave to one that has poor wear we often discuss. Worth the endeavor though if ya just gots ta knows..........

Have fun

Originally Posted by Lynn

On the problem razors, I would love to see pictures of them when we discuss them here. Unless the micro bevel is being done on non problematic razors like to preserve a damascus pattern or simply personal preference. I usually find that the need for tape is because a razor is way out of what and that usually is heavily and unevenly flattened and where the uneven flattening and the uneven flattening is not the same on both sides. These are crazy hard razors for new people to take on and can be very frustrating sometimes to those of us who have honed a few razors. Many times people declare these razor warped and they can take hours of repair time to get the entire edge to a point where it will come in contact with the stone. An alternative is a rolling X which may work fairly quick depending on the razor or again, take hours to get right. Another alternative is the micro bevel created by taping the razor. Usually one layer of tape will only reflect the damage in the spine and bevel, so you need to build up to 2 or 3 layers and I have seen people do a 4th layer as well. Simply speaking, all you are doing is changing the geometry of the razor to create a bevel which will produce a shavable edge. Personally, I have found that some micro bevels produce an edge that does not last as long on some razors as others and I haven't figured that out yet. There are a ton of ways to skin the proverbial cat and it's good to have all of them in your arsenal as there are a ton of funky razors out there that can still be made to shave if those are the kind of razors you like. It would just be fun to see some of them as we discuss them up front.

What is interesting is that you can definitely create these micro bevels at any stage in the game if you have the time to play with them and get most to produce a decent shave. I have found that you can hone a decent razor with no tape and then put tape on at the finishing stone. You can start with one layer and go to two layers. Two layers and go to three layers and three going to four. Never went beyond that but all have produced shaving edges so far. The fun begins when switching from a razor in good shave to one that has poor wear we often discuss. Worth the endeavor though if ya just gots ta knows..........

Have fun

Thanks for the added information. No, I didn't post a pic but I'm not sure there was much to get from one. The blade in question was one I picked up off of eBay. It needed a little work in that it had some MINOR rust on the spine and a couple very tiny chips in whatever bevel was there to start with. But beyond that, it gave the impression of a razor that was really never used. No real hone wear detectable at all. It is a Bengall 6/8. It looked like it simply sat around for a long time being neglected. I removed the rust with some high grit sandpaper and put it on a 1k to remove the chips and set the bevel. The bevel passed the thumb nail test and some of the usual shave tests. I ran into problems after that in that the 8k did not seem to get it as sharp as I would have expected. On and on I went going back between 4k and 8k (straight up and pyramids) to try to get it sharp but it would only go so far before it fell apart. The second layer of tape seemed to solve it although it still needs to be tested. But the symptoms seem to be moving in the right direction. I’ll leave the analysis to you two gents as you’ve had more experience with the how’s and why’s of all of this. I was simply grateful to see some progress at this point.

Originally Posted by OCDshaver

Thanks for the added information. No, I didn't post a pic but I'm not sure there was much to get from one. The blade in question was one I picked up off of eBay. It needed a little work in that it had some MINOR rust on the spine and a couple very tiny chips in whatever bevel was there to start with. But beyond that, it gave the impression of a razor that was really never used. No real hone wear detectable at all. It is a Bengall 6/8. It looked like it simply sat around for a long time being neglected. I removed the rust with some high grit sandpaper and put it on a 1k to remove the chips and set the bevel. The bevel passed the thumb nail test and some of the usual shave tests. I ran into problems after that in that the 8k did not seem to get it as sharp as I would have expected. On and on I went going back between 4k and 8k (straight up and pyramids) to try to get it sharp but it would only go so far before it fell apart. The second layer of tape seemed to solve it although it still needs to be tested. But the symptoms seem to be moving in the right direction. I’ll leave the analysis to you two gents as you’ve had more experience with the how’s and why’s of all of this. I was simply grateful to see some progress at this point.

What you are describing is something that actually can be problematic. A lot of old razors especially ones that have accumulated some rusting are hard to keep an edge on. Under the microscope, I have seen many of these where the bevel looks great to the naked eye, but have significant pitting or disintegration going on a the edge. So every time your re-set a bevel trying to get past the rusting or micro pitting more pops up. Sometimes a micro bevel can help in this situation, sometimes not and you just need to get to an un-infected layer of metal where the edge will hold up.

Have fun.

Originally Posted by Lynn

What you are describing is something that actually can be problematic. A lot of old razors especially ones that have accumulated some rusting are hard to keep an edge on. Under the microscope, I have seen many of these where the bevel looks great to the naked eye, but have significant pitting or disintegration going on a the edge. So every time your re-set a bevel trying to get past the rusting or micro pitting more pops up. Sometimes a micro bevel can help in this situation, sometimes not and you just need to get to an un-infected layer of metal where the edge will hold up.

Have fun.

I have a small microscope that I have been watching it with. It about 100X. I didn't detect anything that looked like pitting on the cutting edge. But again, my knowledge of restoration does not extend beyond my attempt to remove the rust on this one with some high grit sandpaper and metal polish. The other razor that I was having problems with was brand new so I know that pitting and rust were not a problem. Both of them hit a wall at a certain level (or lack of) sharpness but surpassed it with that extra layer of tape. In any case, it seems as though its an added trick when nothing else seems to help......for right now anyway. Thank you for tip!