Thread: Friable grit stones

Glen, thank you!

Another forum member started using the shank of a large screwdriver to work jnat slurry before taking a blade to it. As you know, I've experimented some w/ backstrokes, finding that the edge seems to tolerate very mild pressure on the backstroke that it won't tolerate on the normal edge-leading stroke. Either way, its a longer process than 10 strokes and done. Some blades seem to just fall in line and need no special treatment. Those that seem plateau'd at, say, an 8-10k level of sharpness (not a bad level IMO) seem to respond to the time on the jnat grit. Like Glen (and others), keeping a tiny amount of slurry present has given more predictably pleasing results than water only.

I've not learned to use magnification to really give me useable input. That skill remains in my future.

Since the low-grit thuri has given pleasing results to an 8-10k level, It makes sense to try the same w/ the y/g finishing stone.

It'll keep me occupied & mildly out of my mind - chasing a better edge.

I appreciate your help, Gents.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I actually no longer use my J-nat with clear water, I always leave a slight bit of the old slurry on it and finish to damp,,, I have read of other J-nat users doing the same with Sushi Knives...

agreed, I been honing this way as well,

One thing I have said for a few years now is that we don't use enough pressure at the finishing stage to break down the slurry when honing Western style razors, other people are finding out there might be some substance to this..

Yes, yes and yes, I never understood the no pressure thing, one has to push a little bit to get things to break down and do some work. IME there is nothing wrong with longer slurry work out, I feel some folks do not spend enough time on the slurry to get the best out of their stone.

Originally Posted by pinklather

I LOVE your questions, Oni. Abductive (as opposed to inductive/deductive). Why is the question an issue in the first place?
The question comes from the way the properties of the stones are discussed vs how their use is described. Put another way: if we don't make use of grit breaking down and providing a finer finish, why do we consistently speak of grit that breaks down? Its has confused me in the past, and likely has confused others. Some discussion of working jnat slurry is mentioned from time to time, but not the thuri/escher. At the 9/11 NW meetup in Spokane, the honorable Sixgunner demonstrated the jnat finish and described a moderately extended set of strokes as being done just to break down the grit. That was the only time I've heard it mentioned explicitely, other than some discussion on other forums.

'Leads me to believe that grit break-down is mostly unused - for whatever reasons. Maybe its not needed because the stone it comes from is adequate to do the job without the extra steps & strokes, or that few blades actually need the extra step.

Again, Gents, I appreciate your kind help.

"Retroductive reasoning" is how my brain works Robert .
I partly agree with this, "Maybe its not needed because the stone it comes from is adequate to do the job without the extra steps & strokes, or that few blades actually need the extra step." ... Or... Jnats can be very versatile & you can take a blade at a particular stage & finish it in a number of ways. Working the Nagura slurries is just one way. Not everybody hones the traditional Japanese way, especially with Western razors. I agree with doing some experimenting & have fun with your "edge chasing".

As Glen says I've been experimenting with my coticule slurry and finding that if I use alot of water and gently rub the stone, the slurry is very sticky and dries to the razor. This type of slurry cant be washed off under the tap and is pretty rough.

A ground in slurry created with little water then watered down to what you need it for is far less 'chalky' doesnt stick to the razor and gives a far smoother edge IME.

It makes sense considering really hard coticules like la verte give sharper edges consistently - Harder coticule grounds down the slurry easier. I'm not saying the garnets are broke down, but purely by observation the slurry is definitely silkier and smoother when ground down this way.

I dont have any experience with thuri's or eschers but I suspect it may be the same case.

I'm starting to think that a natural stone is more a prop to let a good slurry do the majority of sharpening the razor

I've asked gary Haywood for a loan of one of his more challenging coticules to hone on to test if the theory carries over to other coticules

regards Alex

"A ground in slurry created with little water then watered down to what you need it for is far less 'chalky' doesnt stick to the razor and gives a far smoother edge IME."

This gets my tiny mind percolating. Thx. for posting, Alex

Thanks for jumping in Alex, I was hoping you would...

I think there is way more to the Art of Slurry then just speed,, I mentioned two different types way back when I did a thread by that name, basically a Cutting slurry, and a Finishing slurry I was just finding that there were unique finishes hiding in the mud...

There have been hints at this for quite some time, people using slurry to finish on their Escher stones and not diluting out, and claiming very smooth shaves I have been messing with slurries since I bought a Norton 4/8, IMHO the added benefit is in the Smooth not the Sharp, I have always thought that you get a more even finish by using slurry all the way through...
I have always tried to explain it as having a multitude of cutting points, all shifting around, instead of being locked inline and stuck to the surface ... I wish I could do those cool computer graphics to explain better

Anyway just some stuff to ponder and experiment with

Some Fun, some fun

The main difference when i tried this with my jnat was that the slurry was so smooth it just polished the edge, but it does give great control over it. I rubbed the stone literally 5 times and set a bevel from it relatively quickly using the smooth slurry as a base for the cutting slurry.

The coticule slurry always seems to have cutting power though

alex

I dunno about cutting and finishing slurry - you guys must have smarter rocks than I do. Mine just make slurry.

Personally I find the idea of friable grit particularly unhelpful, so I ignore it completely and just concentrate on each stone and how it works under various slurry scenarios. Let's face it, knowing whether something has a friable "grit" has not lessened the amount of the "each natural is unique" statements that surround any discussion on natural stones.

James.

Originally Posted by Jimbo

I dunno about cutting and finishing slurry - you guys must have smarter rocks than I do. Mine just make slurry.

Personally I find the idea of friable grit particularly unhelpful, so I ignore it completely and just concentrate on each stone and how it works under various slurry scenarios. Let's face it, knowing whether something has a friable "grit" has not lessened the amount of the "each natural is unique" statements that surround any discussion on natural stones.

James.

I'm going by observations of the rocks I have. thats why I'm borrowing another coticule to try the theory, its all experimentation and its worked for me Jimbo.

I see it as something else to try if a natural is being temperamental, as you said, they are natural stones and there are a million different ways to use them.

A long winded way of saying, I agree

regards Alex

Originally Posted by Jimbo

you guys must have smarter rocks than I do. Mine just make slurry.

Personally I find the idea of friable grit particularly unhelpful, so I ignore it completely and just concentrate on each stone and how it works under various slurry scenarios. Let's face it, knowing whether something has a friable "grit" has not lessened the amount of the "each natural is unique" statements that surround any discussion on natural stones.

James.

They all just make slurry... What you do with that slurry after it is made, is the direction this is going... When the slurry is produced it all seems to be a large grit size and helps with cutting, what some of us are finding is that if the slurry is Worked, Crushed, Mulled or whatever you choose to call it is that we can dig out different results from the same stones...

Is this important ??? Not really, but it is interesting and like I said it does seem to change the S M O O T H of the edge, for me that is what I chase, I love finding minute changes in how smooth the edge can get, especially from stones/hones that others often call "Too Sharp", Too Crisp", "Too Harsh"...