Thread: Jnat Finisher honing with Water Only

Help me out here!

I've done every possible test I can think of on some fine Jnat finishers.
There is now way these stones can be of any use for honing with water only.

The rocks are; Otaniyama Asagi Kamisori and Nakayama Asagi + all types of tomonaguras I could think of.



If used with water only I get this "Hikitsuri", the friction between the steel and stone gives vibrations and the blade jumps.
It will also with the slightest pressure knock off pieces of the stones that scratch stone and steel badly.

If I on the other hand use the slightest slurry they behave nice and gives really fine edges.
The finer the tomonagura the finer the edge.
The finest edge I've ever got was with a piece of Narutaki Jizuya, I did that last night and that's the reason why I'm posting this now.
I know Narutaki Jizuya would not be considered a normal tomonagura, I got some stones mixed up and used it by mistake, best mistake ever!
Iwasaki in the translation by JimR (Thanks!) do not mention anything like honing with water only, he say you always should use a tomonagura.
I can hone fine with water only on my less fine grit stones, but not on these.

So, are there really good finishers that works with water only?
Won't a softer stone that will self slurry always give of fresh particles to the slurry and thus mess up the honing?

Interesting post.

I have done water-only finishes with fine results on a couple of my finishers.
A Nakayama Kiita and a Shoubudani Asagi I have seem to do best using water only.
Both are hard, but not the 5+++ varieties.
They will however perform equally well with a dilution of slurry, and finished off before completely clean. i.e. water only.

I have one Ozuku that will start to skip and vibrate on water only when the razor is at the final stages, and then it really doesn't do any more good for the edge.
When I add a drop of dishwashing detergent to the water, the skipping seems to stop, but it will not reach true finisher stages without a slight haze of slurry

On another Nakayama I have, an Asagi, I will have to finish with a tad more slurry for some reason.
It does perform just as well as all the others, but this is the way to get the max from that one I find.

As with my Y/G Escher and other naturals I use, I will usually finish the razor with a very small amount of slurry as the final stage.
The exception of course being oilstones like my Charnley Forest. (for those who uses it with that)

Birnando, Have you tried with different tomonaguras?

I find they all gives a little different results.
Nakayama Kiita/Asagi and a piece of Ozuko as tomonaguras were for long my favorites, that's until the "mishap"!

I generally use a bit of Sodium bicarbonate in RO water for my sharpening. (RO - Reverse Osmosis)
No, I do not believe it really matters to use RO water but it's pure and i make it by the gallon for other purposes, so why not.
The Sodium bicarbonate on the other hand makes the water a little soapy, and it helps.
So i really believe that your drop of detergent will help, I just can't get myself to put it on my stones... My precious, mine, mine!

I've got some Nakayama Kiita and a Shoubudani Asagi among others and they work fine with water only, but they will never get close to the performance of the harder stones.

Yes, I have tried with tons of them
That's part of the allure for me when it comes to Japanese Hones.
Oddly enough, the ones I find works best for me, is not the one cut from the stone.
In fact, all my best combinations involve Tomonaguras and finishers from different mines and/or stratas.

There are tons of possibilities, and so many ways to reach that edge we all chase..

I seem to have found the right combinations of Tomonagura and finisher, but the quest will definitely continue.

Should I pinpoint the one that yields the very best, or at least most consistent finish, it would be the Nakayama Asagi and an extremely hard Ozuku Nagura.

But really, the steel also plays a role here.
There are razors that simply will not get that little extra from one combination, but seems to get scary sharp on others.

From what I remember, Glen (gssixgun) described us hone-nuts as the ones chasing the rainbow as it were.
I found that very fitting...

I found exactly the same thing, a piece taken from the base stone seems not to be the best tomonagura, even tho that practice have been a "truth" for some time.
I guess what we are looking for is just the perfect mix of very fine abrasive particles together with something that will buffer them and cushion the steel against the stone.

I for one haven't tried "tons of them", i wish... But hey, I'm only a stones throw away!

Originally Posted by Lemur

I found exactly the same thing, a piece taken from the base stone seems not to be the best tomonagura, even tho that practice have been a "truth" for some time.
I guess what we are looking for is just the perfect mix of very fine abrasive particles together with something that will buffer them and cushion the steel against the stone.

I for one haven't tried "tons of them", i wish... But hey, I'm only a stones throw away!

Indeed you are Lemur, indeed you are.

You should join one of our gatherings someday.
We are quite the active group here in and around Oslo, and we seem to meet up a few times a year.
We started what we called "Nordic RazorCon" last summer, and we will repeat that this coming summer as well

Originally Posted by Birnando

Indeed you are Lemur, indeed you are.

You should join one of our gatherings someday.
We are quite the active group here in and around Oslo, and we seem to meet up a few times a year.
We started what we called "Nordic RazorCon" last summer, and we will repeat that this coming summer as well

I'll see about that, got some bad cash flow... It flows all right but only in the wrong direction!
But should you ever come by Gotland I'll show you the best Jnats in the world, well best at my place at least, that is if you don't bring any!

When I use Jnats I use a prepolisher with mejiro nagura to prep the edge to move to a finisher.
On a finisher most of the time I use tomonagura slurry dilution and finish on water with a few strokes.
Not all finishers are equal, some are more aggressive, some are less, some are softer some are very very hard.
Some finishers may allow to finish on water only, but I personally have not seen many, most are good with slurry and dilution.
It is very important to have the correct tomonagura for the finishing stone, not any piece of Jnat will work well, in general the tomonagura has to be softer than the base stone, also almost as fine even finer if possible, and the slurry should be able to break down fast. In my opinion a good tomonagura is a soft very fine stone. The really hard tomonaguras are just a waste of time and money.

Originally Posted by Lemur

So, are there really good finishers that works with water only?
Won't a softer stone that will self slurry always give of fresh particles to the slurry and thus mess up the honing?

Both these questions could be qualified a little by what you call finishing.

If by finishing you mean 3-5 light strokes or similar then yes there are are really good hard & also slightly less hard finishers that will work with water only.

Also, Iwasaki san does mention using water alone to finish a razor after removing the "false edge " with CrO. Read it again & you will see he says to remove all traces of slurry on the stone for this part of the honing.

Originally Posted by Lemur

I found exactly the same thing, a piece taken from the base stone seems not to be the best tomonagura, even tho that practice have been a "truth" for some time.
I guess what we are looking for is just the perfect mix of very fine abrasive particles together with something that will buffer them and cushion the steel against the stone.

..

So just buy yourself some nagura progression pieces and a base piece of marble/slate/something hard. Why fork out Jnat-cash on a base stone you don't use? I've never understood the "logic" behind this nagura progression honing and then *not* using the base stone at the end.

My Nakayama asagi works extremely well without a "tomonagura", but if I ever feel in the need I rub it with a diamond plate to get some slurry. Works very well either way. So to answer your question yes there are Jnats out there that work very well with water only (sometimes I even use it dry - feels like silk no matter what you do with it in fact).

I think the trick is to get good information from a good vendor who is not just going to push what they have in stock on you. I waited almost 4 months for my stone to be sourced from Japan by my vendor, but then I think my guy works on a different time frame to many people. Well worth the wait, well worth the money.

Good luck.

James.